Now with Videos! Stranraer ‘themed’ loft layout 1959-64

[danstercivicman]

33 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

The great storm of 1953 covered the east coast all the way down to the Thames Estuary and onto the Kent coast it was doubly worse because of the lack of communication meaning people were totally unaware that is was on its way.I saw the results at Canvey Island Essex my mums sister lived at Sth Benfleet the place of access onto Canvey ,we stood on the downs at Hadley and all you could see was water with the odd house sticking up everything else was washed away.It took many months to repair the damage and sea walls were built around Canvey, the government forbade people going there for  holidays and it became a residential environment.When I was at Sth Benfleet I used to spend many days on the Canvey buses a pleasant way to enjoy myself plus the views of the oil refineries were wonderful  !  I hope that this storm surge is never repeated as the death toll was very high and even with the so called advances in communication I think that many people would still lose their lives.

 

It surprised me as I would have thought the ARP/Observer Corp would have been in place to pass on messages esp given the threat of nuclear war.

 

I think that’s what made the tragedy worse for the ferry is that it sank within ten miles of land and could have easily been located if they had believed there own (found to be correct triangulation). 

 

I am not sure if they had the extra gullotine stern door down as well?

 

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

41 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

The great storm of 1953 covered the east coast all the way down to the Thames Estuary and onto the Kent coast it was doubly worse because of the lack of communication meaning people were totally unaware that is was on its way.I saw the results at Canvey Island Essex my mums sister lived at Sth Benfleet the place of access onto Canvey ,we stood on the downs at Hadley and all you could see was water with the odd house sticking up everything else was washed away.It took many months to repair the damage and sea walls were built around Canvey, the government forbade people going there for  holidays and it became a residential environment.When I was at Sth Benfleet I used to spend many days on the Canvey buses a pleasant way to enjoy myself plus the views of the oil refineries were wonderful  !  I hope that this storm surge is never repeated as the death toll was very high and even with the so called advances in communication I think that many people would still lose their lives.

Sadly, I suspect you are right.  The 1953 event was in some ways a 'perfect storm' on the east coast of England and in Holland where the dykes were breached and many thousands lost their lives, a combination of vile weather, heavy rainfall on land which meant that floodwater could not be released into the sea as normal, a spring tide, and very low atmospheric pressure which led to a 'storm surge' so that sea levels were elevated.  

 

The response both here and in Holland was to build the defences higher than they had been before, which will sooner or later lead to their being breached by deeper water, especially against the backdrop of global warming and rising sea levels, though this was not realised in the aftermath of the 1953 storm. This was the worst event since 1571 and the flooding that led to the famous story of the 'Bride of Enderby', commemorated in a Victorian poem and a peal of church bells still played by campanologists.

 

If 1953 is a 'once in a 500 year' storm, there will sooner or later be a 'once in a millenium' one.  Central London's vulnerability was recognised by the construction of the Thames Barrier and similar installations in Holland, but modern thinking is to spread the water and reduce it's depth by allowing low lying coastal areas to be inundated; this is understandably a matter of debate among those whose property is not to be protected.  If a 'perfect storm' is reckoned to be a particularly unlucky event, it must be recognised that it is only unlucky at any particular time; over a period of time it is inevitable...

 

The ECML was breached between Edinburgh and Newcastle in the 1953 storm as well, and traffic diverted for some months afterwards.  The introduction of the 'Elizabethan' service (poems again; 'Sir Nigel designed the mighty A4/ with the speed of a greyhound and the strength of a boar' and all that) was delayed by this.

 

On the plus side communication is better nowadays, and so is weather forecasting.  Hopefully not so many lives would be lost (ideally none), but a lot of property would!

[The Johnster]

27 minutes ago, danstercivicman said:

 

It surprised me as I would have thought the ARP/Observer Corp would have been in place to pass on messages esp given the threat of nuclear war.

 

I think that’s what made the tragedy worse for the ferry is that it sank within ten miles of land and could have easily been located if they had believed there own (found to be correct triangulation). 

 

I am not sure if they had the extra gullotine stern door down as well?

 

 

 

 

I think the ARP/Observer Corp, later Civil Defence, were more concerned with military threat than a weather event, which they were not really set up to deal with.  I doubt if the possible effects of a nuclear attack were considered much at all beyond the big cities in 1953; those living in rural areas were considered less at risk and more able to look after themselves.  'After all, they grew the food, didn't they'; I doubt the matter was given much attention beyond that.

Edited February 19, 2019 by The Johnster

[danstercivicman]

2 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I think the ARP/Observer Corp, later Civil Defence, were more concerned with military threat than a weather event, which they were not really set up to deal with.  I doubt if the possible effects of a nuclear attack were considered much at all beyond the big cities in 1953; those living in rural areas were considered less at risk and more able to look after themselves.  'After all, they grew the food, didn't they'; I doubt the matter was given much attention beyond that.

 

I guess so.  I thought they measured weather etc but like you say possibly only for war purposes.

 

I think there were some pretty bad rail crashes also in the early fifties.  It’s way before my time though my gran seems to remember it all very well (she’s in her late eighties).

 

She grew up in Lowestoft but had moved in the early fifties to near St Albans 

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, danstercivicman said:

 

I think the storm of 1953 was labelled the worst peacetime disaster therefore that’s how the Princess Victoria tragedy got labelled the worst maritime disaster after the titanic. 

 

Although I maybe completely wrong!

 

I watched a documentary about the storm.  It was harrowing lots of lives lost including infants.

 

In memory and out of respect there will be a memorial at the end of the pier.  Heartbreaking that the women and children’s life boat was dashed into the ship...

 

I had read about the one you linked to and like you say disasters at sea were very common!  

I think the memorial is a very fitting tribute. I understand that there is one in Larne. 

 

I sort of wondered whether the overall impact of the storm, with the Princess Victoria's 133 victims compared with  326 lost on land in Britain (a fraction of the over 2000 people killed in the low countries) made its loss seem an aspect of the wider disaster rather than an alert to the dangers to which a new type of ship was subject (though I think naval architects were aware of the stability problems if water got into open vehicle decks) 

 

The additional guillotine  stern door was not down though it's not clear whether that would have saved the ship.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Pacific231G

[The Johnster]

Triple collisions at Harrow and Wealdstone in 1952 and Lewisham in 1957 made a huge impact on the public's awareness, and highlighted the need for AWS which might have prevented both tragedies.  The fact that these accidents occurred within the Greater London area may have had some bearing on the extensiveness of the media reporting, although the sheer scale of these terrible accidents would have guaranteed their notoriety!  

 

The worst railway disaster of all, Quintinshill in 1915, was not well reported nationally perhaps partly due to the sensitivity of it's involving a troop train during a war, and has made much less of an impact on public consciousness, but was not exactly suppressed and well enough chronicled in the Carlisle and Edinburgh areas (most of the troops came from Edinburgh).  I suppose it is inevitable when you take into account the density of traffic that London tends to have more bad railway accidents than any other area of the country; Harrow, Lewisham, Clapham Jc, Ealing Broadway, Ladbroke Grove come to mind, and Hatfield isn't far away!

Edited February 19, 2019 by The Johnster

[danstercivicman]

13 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I think the memorial is a very fitting tribute. I understand that there is one in Larne. 

 

I sort of wondered whether the overall impact of the storm, with the Princess Victoria's 133 victims compared with  326 lost on land in Britain (a fraction of the over 2000 people killed in the low countries) made its loss seem an aspect of the wider disaster rather than an alert to the dangers to which a new type of ship was subject (though I think naval architects were aware of the stability problems if water got into open vehicle decks) 

 

Yeah, after watching the documentary (very moving) I felt I had to esp for the women and children lost that day. 

 

I’ve only had time to solder the stock rails on the lairage points and my daughters done more painting.  We have now run out of paint!  Seems a constant battle to resource this layout! 

[The Johnster]

That's a good thing if it's an indication of the pace you're setting!

[danstercivicman]

It is but the main job I really need to do next month is the u section and the fiddleyard boards!  Then it will actually be a layout  

 

I keep forgetting Rome was not built in a day! 

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, danstercivicman said:

 

It very much depends on the ferry  

 

The Hampton Ferry has a completely different stern to the Caledonian Princess!  

 

It had had two large derrecks and less of a rounded look.  

 

I haven’t decided on which ferry yet, but it will literally only be 15cm max due to space but yeah basically like you have suggested as much as I can fit...and actually build having never built a ship! 

Probably because Hampton Ferry was a train ferry. Now that would be fun - a train ferry across the North Channel, complete with gauge-changing bogies...

[The Johnster]

The train deck was boarded over to accept cars for the Stranraer-Larne service, and the boards could be easily removed should she be required to cover one of the Dover jobs!  

[danstercivicman]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The train deck was boarded over to accept cars for the Stranraer-Larne service, and the boards could be easily removed should she be required to cover one of the Dover jobs!  

 

It was indeed, there was no rail-rail at Stranraer.

 

Hampton Ferry is probably easier to build the back of but it would date the layout to pre Oct 1961.

[danstercivicman]

The Heljan Hunslet has arrived

 

Such a nice loco

 

My daughter has been driving it! 

 

She likes the ‘tidler Train’!  

 

I also got a Dapol CCT which is very nice! 

 

The Hunslet has some power and is a Stranraer loco! 

 

I also got a bus for the bridge  

Edited February 20, 2019 by danstercivicman
Grammar

[Northroader]

I came across a drawing of one of the Ferries like Hampton Ferry you could possibly use to get a rough idea. (I seem to remember this drawing in the EAGLE comic a long, long, time ago)

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrTimDunn/status/737918666847715328/photo/1

Edited February 20, 2019 by Northroader

[danstercivicman]

25 minutes ago, Northroader said:

I came across a drawing of one of the Ferries like Hampton Ferry you could possibly use to get a rough idea. (I seem to remember this drawing in the EAGLE comic a long, long, time ago)

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrTimDunn/status/737918666847715328/photo/1

 

Cheers, that’s very helpful and yes would do for Hampton Ferry.  It had two rear stern doors then two inner cutaways where the rail coaches went.  Cars were lifted to the upper car deck I think but at Stranraer the rail deck was used.

 

Much appreciated!

 

Dan 

[danstercivicman]

Today this arrived and a surprise!!! 

[Ian Smeeton]

Go on,.... I can't stand the suspense.

 

What is the surprise

 

Regards

 

Ian

[danstercivicman]

Class 110 (standing in for the class 126).

 

Its abit of a rough runner needs some TLC but a nice model and super detailed by the prev owner...

 

Bit of a rubbish surprise I know...

 

Anyone know how to make it run abit smoother? 

 

Please note where you see Blackpool it’s actually Glasgow  

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by danstercivicman
Info

[danstercivicman]

The main surprise to me is that I now have enough stock to run the layout...

 

Jubilee x 2

STD 5MT x1

Black Five x 1

Ivatt 4MT x 1

STD 4MT-t x 1

Crab x 2

Hunslet x 1

Class 110

 

That means I can now replicate all the services on the route.

 

The long term gaps are:

 

6MT Clan

Black Five (more the merrier)

 

I’d better sort the rest of the baseboards!!! 

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by danstercivicman
Spelling

[danstercivicman]

Sometimes the photo you are after just emerges!

 

The evidence I need of milk tankers coming on the Ferry from Larne

 

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/nortern-ireland-milk-comes-to-britain-s-rescue-to-relieve-news-photo/1053476430

 

Thats just what the Dr ordered  

 

It even tells of the volume of tanker traffic and that the milk was loaded into railway wagons  

Edited February 24, 2019 by danstercivicman
Info

[Andrew P]

Loco list looks good Dan, somehow I missed the FIRST 9 and a bit pages so I'd better do some catching up over the next few days.

 

Glad the house move went as planned.

[danstercivicman]

3 hours ago, Andrew P said:

Loco list looks good Dan, somehow I missed the FIRST 9 and a bit pages so I'd better do some catching up over the next few days.

 

Glad the house move went as planned.

 

Cheers

 

Its great having a new space and a bigger space to work with.

 

Next month hopefully the trains will have somewhere to run! 

[Pacific231G]

On 19/02/2019 at 21:42, The Johnster said:

I think the ARP/Observer Corp, later Civil Defence, were more concerned with military threat than a weather event, which they were not really set up to deal with.  I doubt if the possible effects of a nuclear attack were considered much at all beyond the big cities in 1953; those living in rural areas were considered less at risk and more able to look after themselves.  'After all, they grew the food, didn't they'; I doubt the matter was given much attention beyond that.

 

This is all a bit OT but ARP and the Royal Observer Corps were separate and had different, though obviously related, functions. The Observer Corps came under the RAF while the ARP (Civil Defence from 1941)  was really a common tiltle for various functions, particularly Air Raid Wardens organised by local authorities.

 

My father was a member of the ROC for many years (until it stood down) but that was after its function changed, between 1955 and 1965, from spotting and tracking potentially hostile aircraft (a job that by the 1960s could be done entirely by radar) to triangulating the location, type and strength of nuclear blasts and the probable and actual paths of fallout. These were needed for warning the population- across the whole country not just its cities-but also in detecting the scope and scale of a nuclear attack. In those roles they were part of RAF Strike Command and the Home Office's UKWMO (UK Warning and Monitoring Organisation) They were always seen as an off-shoot of the RAF and their commanders were always Air Commodores though observers were classified an non-combatant civliians.

 

The ROC was established in 1925, played a vital role in the RAF's very advanced command and control system  in WW2, especially during the Battle of Britain, and was stood down from 1995. 

The ROC took weather information from the Met Office to inform its fallout prediction but AFAIK didn't generate it.

 

Entirely co-incidentally, I made a short film about the ROC for the BBC, probably in 1985 for  its 60th anniversary. We filmed in one of the isolated observation posts that used to be scattered througout the countryside and in one of the group headquarters .  

 

In terms of monitoring the progress of the 1953 storm, I'd have expected the Coastguard to have played a major role so why civilians at risk in low lying areas weren't warned as the storm surge made its way down the North Sea coast has never been very clear. I assume local police stations - at least the larger ones - had telex machines so distributing warnings would have been entirely possible. I wonder if it was a case of nobody having a specific responsibility to warn the public so it fell between several stools. None of the agencies that would have been monitoring the storm thought it was their job to warn civilians so none of them did so and of course the failure couldn't then be blamed on anyone in particular.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Pacific231G

[Legend]

On 24/02/2019 at 07:54, danstercivicman said:

Sometimes the photo you are after just emerges!

 

The evidence I need of milk tankers coming on the Ferry from Larne

 

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/nortern-ireland-milk-comes-to-britain-s-rescue-to-relieve-news-photo/1053476430

 

Thats just what the Dr ordered  

 

It even tells of the volume of tanker traffic and that the milk was loaded into railway wagons  

 

Nice . It’s even the Princess Victoria as well .  Your certainly making great progress

[danstercivicman]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

 

This is all a bit OT but ARP and the Royal Observer Corps were separate and had different, though obviously related, functions. The Observer Corps came under the RAF while the ARP (Civil Defence from 1941)  was really a common tiltle for various functions, particularly Air Raid Wardens organised by local authorities.

 

My father was a member of the ROC for many years (until it stood down) but that was after its function changed, between 1955 and 1965, from spotting and tracking potentially hostile aircraft (a job that by the 1960s could be done entirely by radar) to triangulating the location, type and strength of nuclear blasts and the probable and actual paths of fallout. These were needed for warning the population- across the whole country not just its cities-but also in detecting the scope and scale of a nuclear attack. In those roles they were part of RAF Strike Command and the Home Office's UKWMO (UK Warning and Monitoring Organisation) They were always seen as an off-shoot of the RAF and their commanders were always Air Commodores though observers were classified an non-combatant civliians.

 

The ROC was established in 1925, played a vital role in the RAF's very advanced command and control system  in WW2, especially during the Battle of Britain, and was stood down from 1995. 

The ROC took weather information from the Met Office to inform its fallout prediction but AFAIK didn't generate it.

 

Entirely co-incidentally, I made a short film about the ROC for the BBC, probably in 1985 for  its 60th anniversary. We filmed in one of the isolated observation posts that used to be scattered througout the countryside and in one of the group headquarters .  

 

In terms of monitoring the progress of the 1953 storm, I'd have expected the Coastguard to have played a major role so why civilians at risk in low lying areas weren't warned as the storm surge made its way down the North Sea coast has never been very clear. I assume local police stations - at least the larger ones - had telex machines so distributing warnings would have been entirely possible. I wonder if it was a case of nobody having a specific responsibility to warn the public so it fell between several stools. None of the agencies that would have been monitoring the storm thought it was their job to warn civilians so none of them did so and of course the failure couldn't then be blamed on anyone in particular.

 

Good info, that appears to have been the case.  I’ll try and dig out that documentary if it’s on YouTube