I Have Truly Had It With Hornby

[robmcg]

here are a few pics of the models as received, the packaging for both was exemplary,  no damage, the boxes etc perfect.  Thus I think they left the factory without handrails.

 

From AJM,  I nearly tried to fix this myself

 

 

 

returned the AJM one because I had this coming from Kernows

 

alas even worse,

 

 

 

 

And yes my hobby is photo-editing, as many know, but I often sell models a few months after buying them, almost always at a small loss, but I keep many too. hence my desire to have one in good condition 'fit for purpose' as it were.

 

 

[Chris M]

It seems to me that the UK model railway industry has a few insurmountable problems which come together to cause this situation.

1. Our models are made using small batch production. Lots of short runs which are not great for ensuring consistent quality. Cars are made in hundreds of thousand whereas our models are made in batches which I understand are often around 1,000 units.

2. Manufacturing is usually carried out by a factory in China. In all honesty the value of the business of manufacturing UK model railway equipment is too small to be very important to these factories. This means that, even if they are all part of the same overall company, the UK companies just don’t have sufficient clout to force the factories to do exactly what is wanted.

3. The margins on model railways aren’t great and even locos at today’s prices are relatively small value items.

 

All of this means UK model railway equipment won’t be perfect. I think we either need to be able to accept that or alternatively accept higher prices caused by production located closer to home. At the same time the companies involved do need to continue to try to improve quality.

 

It is always going to be frustrating when we have spent our hard earned cash on something that isn’t perfect. I can understand the Views of the OP and would feel the same. In the case of missing parts it would seem sensible to ask Hornby direct to supply them free of charge even though the purchasers contract was not with Hornby. There could be a problem in that when it comes to Chinese made items it is quite possible that there will be no spares available, yet another problem with Chinese supply.

 

I think we are in as good a position as possible regarding consistency and quality. It will sometimes be frustrating but what is the realistic alternative? European or UK manufactured but more expensive models seems to be the most likely way of improving both quality and development time. This would shrink the size of the hobby. A huge increase in volume giving companies such as Hornby and a Dapol more clout isn’t going to happen.

 

I hope Rob will find a way to forgive Hornby in due course.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The top one looks as if it has been attacked, marks where the handles should be.The lower one looks like it never had the handles or dart, and the lamp bracket has been belted one. The other thing I noticed on pictures elsewhere was that the application of the lining around the curve of the opening panels doesn't seem consistent. This may only be noticeable because things like that seem to show up much more on close-up digital photos than in real life.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...It has made buying new off web retailers a gamble I am now very reluctant to take...

And there's the rub I suppose. Do you have an 'in country' retailer close enough to your home that you could deal with?

[robmcg]

And there's the rub I suppose. Do you have an 'in country' retailer close enough to your home that you could deal with?

 

Yes as in the original post 700kms away,  or a more local retailer who is very nice but would have to 'order it in' and would stand a similar chance of a faulty one plus the NZ retail prices start at about £250.

 

As I stated my post was on of disappointment and annoyance that I have send another model back to the UK with high postage, wrapping, custom declarations, waiting in queues and so on , all for what is a complete waste of my time, a carer's time and car costs, the retailer's time, and nobody profits at all.

[robmcg]

The top one looks as if it has been attacked, marks where the handles should be.The lower one looks like it never had the handles or dart, and the lamp bracket has been belted one. The other thing I noticed on pictures elsewhere was that the application of the lining around the curve of the opening panels doesn't seem consistent. This may only be noticeable because things like that seem to show up much more on close-up digital photos than in real life.

 

I agree. Both models hand what looked like undisturbed plastic shroud condition, the loose sheet of soft plastic nicely centred and so on.

 

Earlier in the Princess Coronation/Duchess thread another buyer had a model with no handrails, about two months ago, and I thought, 'how unlucky! I hope mine are ok.'

 

Edit; it was Dec 24  msg 2004 in the Princess Coronation thread, the seller was Rails,  missing handrails.  I am not alone. Rails, Kernow, and AJM have all had engines delivered with a deficiency in front handrails....

Edited January 10, 2019 by robmcg

[sjp23480]

Rob,

 

It is such a shame that Hornby seem to suffer these issues. This is a truly spectacular model which has had considerable investment to ensure it looks "right". Like others have said in the past, Hornby do a great job on large express engines.

 

Given your circumstances, I think it best to ask the retailer to inspect before despatch, both Derails and Hereford Models do this. As others have stated, the retailers will likely have more influence with Hornby if they return faulty/incomplete models. As well as not wanting to incur UK/NZ/UK postage costs to send/return said item.

 

Over the past few months I have really enjoyed your photoshopped images of your various purchases and was looking forward to seeing your treatment of the new Hornby Princess when released. ;-)

 

Steve

[robmcg]

Oh dear.This sort of publicity is the last thing Hornby need in a week of upbeat release news.. The best way to proceed with persistently vexatious issues like this is to contact Hornby Customer Services.They do respond...witness the response to supplying the wrong tender body for B o B 34050.Replacements have been supplied within 4 months.

 

However I think we all acknowledge that this undoubtedly historic issue needs addressing once and for all.Thus,Rob..for years a great champion of Hornby and its products,,should also approach Simon Kohler with his concerns.Hornby do read this forum and I am certain they are aware of the magnitude of the problem.I also am aware that in the past such issues have fallen on deaf ears and been blithely ignored.The past is however behind us.Things are changing hopefully for the better so give it another go and just see what happens now.This nonsense should not occur

 

First port of call when you buy a faulty item is the retailer not the manufacturer.

 

I know Simon is very good, he has been very good to me in the past on other matters.

 

My OP was driven more by emotion and annoyance than cold logic, and that I would get my money back, or possibly a replacement in good condition,  but it is a colossal waste of everybody's time. Simon will be aware of the number of returns from retailers, he has a much wider view of these things than some give him credit for.

 

I am not interested in paying £100-200 with a lottery, my point was that I have lost confidence in Hornby's engines, at least when 'buying blind' on the web. I don't really want an unknown shop staff member un-boxing, checking and re-packing it either.   The fun, the thrill of buying and opening has gone.

 

Maybe I will have to either have someone check and test every model I buy, or swallow the annoyance of receiving faulty items with attendant work and re-exporting effort.

 

The checking should be done in the factory but in the case of these two engines it appears not....  unless they fell out and are now invisible (tile floor, clean work bench)

[RichardS]

It seems to me that the UK model railway industry has a few insurmountable problems which come together to cause this situation.

1. Our models are made using small batch production. Lots of short runs which are not great for ensuring consistent quality. Cars are made in hundreds of thousand whereas our models are made in batches which I understand are often around 1,000 units.

2. Manufacturing is usually carried out by a factory in China. In all honesty the value of the business of manufacturing UK model railway equipment is too small to be very important to these factories. This means that, even if they are all part of the same overall company, the UK companies just don’t have sufficient clout to force the factories to do exactly what is wanted.

3. The margins on model railways aren’t great and even locos at today’s prices are relatively small value items.

 

All of this means UK model railway equipment won’t be perfect. I think we either need to be able to accept that or alternatively accept higher prices caused by production located closer to home. At the same time the companies involved do need to continue to try to improve quality.

 

It is always going to be frustrating when we have spent our hard earned cash on something that isn’t perfect. I can understand the Views of the OP and would feel the same. In the case of missing parts it would seem sensible to ask Hornby direct to supply them free of charge even though the purchasers contract was not with Hornby. There could be a problem in that when it comes to Chinese made items it is quite possible that there will be no spares available, yet another problem with Chinese supply.

 

I think we are in as good a position as possible regarding consistency and quality. It will sometimes be frustrating but what is the realistic alternative? European or UK manufactured but more expensive models seems to be the most likely way of improving both quality and development time. This would shrink the size of the hobby. A huge increase in volume giving companies such as Hornby and a Dapol more clout isn’t going to happen.

 

I hope Rob will find a way to forgive Hornby in due course.

 

What tosh.

 

Batch size should have no bearing on the quality in fact one would expect worker boredom to be less with smaller batches - a change is a good as a rest etc etc. Greater concentration.

Secondly just because a good is made in China is also not a indicator of low quality unless there is some perception at work here. Many Chinese products are of the highest order.

Whether the QC is due to the lack of clout you suggest Hornby might have we can but speculate upon. I would suspect it is more a cultural issue within Hornby itself.

 

To suggest that products bought here must be expected to be lower quality is an attitude I find quite bewildering. Second rate may be good enough for you but it ain't good enough for me and most others.

 

And - a general point - I also cannot understand the desire to return faulty good to the manufacturer. It is the retailer's responsibility to rectify faults on new goods. Don't let mail order retailers avoid their duties to you - their customers - else some will just exploit that attitude. Remember they are the ones who have made about a 100% mark up on the product for acting as an intermediary only if they are bypassed for after sales service.  It's money for old rope if you go back to Hornby instead.  And you wonder why products are dear? 

 

I cannot believe some of what I've been reading in this thread.

[mdvle]

2. Manufacturing is usually carried out by a factory in China. In all honesty the value of the business of manufacturing UK model railway equipment is too small to be very important to these factories. This means that, even if they are all part of the same overall company, the UK companies just don’t have sufficient clout to force the factories to do exactly what is wanted.

 

Can't speak to the specific factories that Hornby is using, but many of these factories are doing model railway equipment only.  So the UK business is important to them.

 

 

There could be a problem in that when it comes to Chinese made items it is quite possible that there will be no spares available, yet another problem with Chinese supply.

 

Has nothing to do with Chinese supply - the Chinese factory, like a factory in England, supplies what is ordered and paid for.

 

If a model manufacturer doesn't order and pay for spares, then that is on the manufacturer and not the Chinese.

 

I think we are in as good a position as possible regarding consistency and quality. It will sometimes be frustrating but what is the realistic alternative? European or UK manufactured but more expensive models seems to be the most likely way of improving both quality and development time.

The Chinese just landed on the far side of the moon, they are more than capable of quality if it is specified and paid for.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46724727

[Ben Alder]

 

 

And - a general point - I also cannot understand the desire to return faulty good to the manufacturer. It is the retailer's responsibility to rectify faults on new goods. Don't let mail order retailers avoid their duties to you - their customers - else some will just exploit that attitude. Remember they are the ones who have made about a 100% mark up on the product for acting as an intermediary only if they are bypassed for after sales service.  It's money for old rope if you go back to Hornby instead.  And you wonder why products are dear? 

 

 

 

Without getting in to the ins and outs of this topic re acceptance levels, with regard to that "100%" mark up level - dream on. Never has been and now is far less than it was - where are your local model shops? With those margins there would be one on most High Streets. I am no longer involved in that side of things and will leave it to current retailers to defend their alleged profiteering...

[Mark Saunders]

Without getting in to the ins and outs of this topic re acceptance levels, with regard to that "100%" mark up level - dream on. Never has been and now is far less than it was - where are your local model shops? With those margins there would be one on most High Streets. I am no longer involved in that side of things and will leave it to current retailers to defend their alleged profiteering...

It is the alleged discounts that are commonly available on furnishings that have lead to the belief with many that margins are far greater than they actually are!

[FJ1701]

Perhaps they should start employing us to do their quality control! Or instead Hornby should start printing this on their boxes: “We produce the model, you do the quality control. Hornby trains, always a surprise in the box!”

 

Joking aside, this should be considered a serious matter by all manufacturers big or small. When the consumer receives their product, it should be 100% complete. Not 98% or 99%, 100%. We shouldn’t have to wait for refunds and replacements which is both time consuming and irritating, the product reflects the company’s image so this can damage their reputation, just look at Dapol, Incorrect circuit boards on the 73, wonky livery on the 68 and now some cad obscurities with the prairie. Now take that example with a pinch of salt, we all know if these problems arise, companies will rectify any known issues but it shouldn’t happen to this amount of people. Cheers

[G-BOAF]

Maybe there's a compromise to be struck here. If Hornby (via their contractors) are not prepared to implement much tighter QC, then maybe the answer is a decent availability of spare bodyshells from Hornby OR Hornby stocking body components, which they currently don't, or refuse to, do. A few tens of extra sprues of injection moulded detail parts (to be painted up, if necessary, by the repair team in Kent), and some wire pressings etc will cost pence. If Hornby are worried about the risk that 'kit builders' etc will start to ask them for parts, then simple answer is ask for proof of purchase before supplying parts. Afterall, Airfix stock and supply spares for parts missing or badly moulded; so within the Hornby group itself there is precedent.

 

What we can't have is poor QC and no option for redress other than return and refund (especially the case when a model is out of stock), or exchange for model with similar faults as we see here.

 

A case, which I'm still annoyed about, even if at some level, I did quite well from it. A couple of years ago I bought a sound-fitted Britannia, brand new, last one in stock at retailer, and probably in the country. It was the only Sanda Kan Brit in the vacuum formed packaging, stupidly designed such that the packaging that supported the cab, also protruded high enough to snap off the cab wind deflectors when the model was packed in the factory. I wrote to Hornby asking if they could supply spares, or if they did not stock spares (which I knew they didn’t!) recover spares from scrap bodies from Britannia or Clan models (a reasonable alternative to suggest). Their reply was that they don't stock body spares (no surprise) and that these parts are glued on and not able to be removed from scrap bodies (really, totally impossible???). I was not happy. Lovely model, very expensive (£270 I think) missing detail. I didn't want my money back, I wanted a model with all the detail it was designed with and that I paid for. I explained this to my Credit Card company, and under the UK Consumer Credit rules which stated joint liability for faulty goods, they rebated me enough to by another brand new non-sound fitted Britannia from which to obtain the cab wind deflectors. Despite Hornby saying it was impossible, I recover a pair of pristine cab wind deflectors by gently but firmly hammering lightly glued securing pins out from the body (using a sewing pin tapped with a Leatherman!)

 

What annoys me here is that in supplying a faulty model, Hornby profited by getting an EXTRA sale (thanks to my credit card company). But yes I did basically end up with a free Brit, minus wind deflectors, and a paid Brit with wind deflectors, but Hornby ended up with two models sold as a result of poor packaging/QC. Something wrong here from an incentive perspective.

Edited January 11, 2019 by G-BOAF

[JaymzHatstand]

I don't really want an unknown shop staff member un-boxing, checking and re-packing it either. The fun, the thrill of buying and opening has gone.

 

........

 

The checking should be done in the factory but in the case of these two engines it appears not.... unless they fell out and are now invisible (tile floor, clean work bench)

Both of my Princess Coronations have come from my local shop (which I appreciate it not an option for you, and not intrinsic to my point) and we're both in a display cabinet. Does this lessen the enjoyment of buying a loco? Nope.

 

The shop in question carefully handles stock, allowing for customer inspection and test running which with the increasingly detailed nature of today's models is very welcome. I suspect it they were asked not to do so, for a particular purchase, they would, but I've been in when a delivery has arrived and watched as a batch of new locos are tested individually.

 

My point is, just because there's no evidence of a test, ie documentation, does not mean it hasn't been done as a matter of course, or that said loco hasn't spent time in a display cabinet (though with pre orders this is less likely of course) but it still doesn't detract from your purchase. Surely it would be better if you knew all was well with it?

 

On a side note, should I have got a discount as my loco was ex-display?!

 

The problem with factory checking comes down to batch size. Consider the sheer volume of several models all leaving the factory together, it would take days to test and inspect them all, and days cost money for staff and shipping. That cost has to be absorbed somewhere.

 

It's unfortunate that you have had two problem locos and hopefully a resolution can be found both Now and in the long term and that you are once again able to garner enjoyment from red boxes!

 

Cheers

 

J

[robmcg]

I see that 46232 'Duchess of Montrose' has arrived at Kernows.

 

Having had one as a child, 3-rail Hornby Dublo....  what could I do?   I bought one.

 

sight unseen.

 

created this from other recent Hornby releases...

 

 

What does this word 'hypocrisy' mean?

 

 

I'm still very annoyed    grumble grumble   

 

I may request a checked/tested Queen Elizabeth exchange...  I guess two from two bad ones was bad luck and by returning both of mine Hornby will eventually get the message, albeit the models were no doubt produced months ago.

Edited January 11, 2019 by robmcg

[BWsTrains]

Rob,

 

see my PM,

 

Colin

[Hal Nail]

Lots of people expressing disatisfaction here along the lines of Hornby must do better etc.

 

But Hornby don’t actually have to because, apart perhaps from the OP, we are still buying their products.

 

So assuming we aren’t going to boycott, is there actually anything positive we can do to improve the situation?

 

(Its clearly not just Hornby either - are an equal number of postings suggesting other manufacturers have scaled back QC and instead rely on retailers providing replacements).

[Chris M]

What tosh.

 

Batch size should have no bearing on the quality in fact one would expect worker boredom to be less with smaller batches - a change is a good as a rest etc etc. Greater concentration.

Secondly just because a good is made in China is also not a indicator of low quality unless there is some perception at work here. Many Chinese products are of the highest order.

Whether the QC is due to the lack of clout you suggest Hornby might have we can but speculate upon. I would suspect it is more a cultural issue within Hornby itself.

 

To suggest that products bought here must be expected to be lower quality is an attitude I find quite bewildering. Second rate may be good enough for you but it ain't good enough for me and most others.

 

And - a general point - I also cannot understand the desire to return faulty good to the manufacturer. It is the retailer's responsibility to rectify faults on new goods. Don't let mail order retailers avoid their duties to you - their customers - else some will just exploit that attitude. Remember they are the ones who have made about a 100% mark up on the product for acting as an intermediary only if they are bypassed for after sales service.  It's money for old rope if you go back to Hornby instead.  And you wonder why products are dear? 

 

I cannot believe some of what I've been reading in this thread.

The question is what do you mean by QC? You can't inspect quality into a product, you have to design quality into a product. When you are producing hundreds of cars a day that sell at many thousands of pounds you can afford to invest huge amounts up front to ensure that build is 100% correct every time. Car manufacturers get the current quality by designing every part so it can only be assembled correctly. If you are building batches of say 1,000 at a time which have a factory piece price of less that £50 you just haven't got that luxury. Also, getting all the bits together for a small batch run is a complete pain in the posterior and so shortages of one little component are much more likely to happen than on mass produced products. I've been involved in both mass production and small batch production and I know how difficult small batches are to get 100% right. Not only getting all the components together but getting operatives to assemble something correctly that they are not familiar with. 

[Jonboy]

Interesting that cars keep popping up...my understanding is one brand at least have a 50%+ rate of vehicles that require remedial work at the dealers...

[BWsTrains]

Lots of people expressing disatisfaction here along the lines of Hornby must do better etc.

 

But Hornby don’t actually have to because, apart perhaps from the OP, we are still buying their products.

 

So assuming we aren’t going to boycott, is there actually anything positive we can do to improve the situation?

 

I’d be intrigued to know if any USA HO modellers suffer the same quality issues with locos from US suppliers, product made in China most likely. From my several years living in the US and then on a major Retail business study there, I know how "customer responsive" both manufacturer and retailers have to be. It's that or they go broke.

 

What you say goes to the heart of the issue, tolerate QA or bad service and that's what you'll get.

 

Colin

 

edit: to remove irrelevant remark

Edited January 11, 2019 by BWsTrains

[Robin Brasher]

A shop can test a model. It would not have any faults in the paint finish and would run perfectly and then fail after 24 hours running.

 

This is what happened with my SECR H class and my Merchant Navy after it had run for about three months. From reading rmweb posts I was not the only person who suffered from overheating H class engines and from smoke coming out from the wrong places.

 

I returned them both to Hornby's repair shop and they replaced the motors free of charge and refunded the postage which cost a lot as I sent them by insured post. I told the Post Office that the locos were not worth much as they did not work but had them insured for replacement value.

 

Hornby's service was excellent but it would not have been so easy if I lived in New Zealand.

 

When I bought my Hornby Dublo Barnstaple from Hobbytime of West Wickham in 1965 they tested it before selling it to me and it is still working now after 53 years. I will probably never find out if my latest purchases from Hornby will last that long but I have a feeling that my Hornby Dublo Duchess of Montrose will still be running long after Hornby's latest Duchess of Montrose has gone to the scrapyard in the sky.