I Have Truly Had It With Hornby

[TheSignalEngineer]

I bought one of the last series of B1s with generator for the lights from Rails. It had several bits loose in the box, some missing and faulty valvegear. As they hadn't got another one of the batch I wanted I had a refund and tracked one down elsewhere. This one was complete except for a conduit on the tender which had also been missing from the first one. On comparing it with pictures of the same loco belonging to others and on various websites it looked as if a whole batch of them were the same.
I've had several Hornby coaches with handrails and other bits like the corner steps off Staniers loose in the box so it isn't a rare happening.
Some sellers like Little Dan at Derails do like to check for problems before they send out and puts a note in to say he has done it.

Edited January 10, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

Very bad luck there, Rob. Clearly QC is not what it should be. It would not be the first example of the apparent inability to control the quality of Chinese factory output.

 

 

I was told by someone who has sourced parts for his business from China that if only 10% are faulty he is doing well and getting delivery when you need it is probably harder than making a profit at the Bookies (Unless of course you are the Bookie)

[Ian Hargrave]

Oh dear.This sort of publicity is the last thing Hornby need in a week of upbeat release news.. The best way to proceed with persistently vexatious issues like this is to contact Hornby Customer Services.They do respond...witness the response to supplying the wrong tender body for B o B 34050.Replacements have been supplied within 4 months.

 

However I think we all acknowledge that this undoubtedly historic issue needs addressing once and for all.Thus,Rob..for years a great champion of Hornby and its products,,should also approach Simon Kohler with his concerns.Hornby do read this forum and I am certain they are aware of the magnitude of the problem.I also am aware that in the past such issues have fallen on deaf ears and been blithely ignored.The past is however behind us.Things are changing hopefully for the better so give it another go and just see what happens now.This nonsense should not occur

[Dunsignalling]

Now we're comparing model trains to cars? One thing with cars at least we can see them before we buy them, unlike a model train these days.

Yes, but with cars, they get a P.D.I from the dealer too, which is increasingly uncommon for model locos, unless one specifically requests it. That, for anyone as far away as Rob, is probably advisable.

 

Indeed, many "collectors" don't want boxes to have been opened but, given the risk of QC issues that might not be apparent without doing so, that amounts to "Schrodinger's Loco" in my book. Each to his/her own.   

 

What's the practical difference between parts that have been broken off and those that clearly should be present (hence the holes to accept them) but aren't?

 

"Damaged" and "incomplete" are effectively the same thing in consumer terms, in either case the model is defective.

 

John

Edited January 10, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[MGR Hooper!]

Dear All,

 

Although I know from many years of buying Hornby models that many are faulty, I have simply had enough.

 

I bought a R3623 blue Coronation 6221 'Queen Elizabeth' which had missing front top handrails, lovely model otherwise, I thought of trying to repair it but in the end the missing handrails are too small for me or anyone I know to handle so I have returned it to the UK from New Zealand. The seller is excellent (AJM Models) and had refunded everything including UKP16 air post cost.   I lost just UKP6 in currency exchange fees.

 

No winners there.  Except the currency changers.

 

A second R3623 bought about the same time from Kernow arrived this morning.

Picture below.

Img_2627a_r1200ab.jpg

 

Top handrails and cowling handle missing. No sign of anything in the box (for both models, I am wise to these things, open models only over a clean surface). The front bogie is jammed upwards into the body, probably an easy fix.  But the previous one has a packing piece there....

 

The missing parts are not a result of transit. The models left the factory like this. In my opinion.  This is unacceptable but to a degree inevitable if I buy off the web.  I am disabled and currently cannot even leave my house, I have to pay a carer to drive to a post shop agency, which is no fault of Hornby, but it still annoys the hell out of me.   I cannot fix such small and fiddly bits myself.

 

I can hear the braying now, "five minutes work!"   "could you build one yourself for that price?"  "why not buy off a retailer who will open it for you before you buy?"       the nearest retailer at a price even remotely close to the UKprice is 700kms away.

 

Sorry.  Hornby have lost another customer, a very valuable long-term regular buyer

 

I am THAT annoyed.

 

p.s. I am also I think rational and know myself well enough to think that some day I will change my mind, but two out of two glaringly faulty models?  Where is even the most basic quality control?  The models are 98% superb. What kind of company would accept this?

 

Right now I am content to say I will never buy another Hornby product .  Never.

 

Hurrrmff 

 

edited to fix mis-spelt Hornby in title

Dear Rob,

 

Two simple solutions....

 

• CONTACT Hornby and ask them to replace it. Hornby's customer service is rather good. They'll mostly likely refund you for shipping it back also. Or they will send you handrails.
• ASK RETAILERS TO CHECK. I always ask the retailer to do a thorough check prior to dispatch. I ask for the running capability to be check and lighting. If a product turns up damaged after this, you'll know that either the retailer hasn't done their job or it happened in transit. If you specify that returning items is too expensive, they will check it for you.

 

Personally I won't be too fussed about two/three tiny handrails missing, easy to make in a matter of minutes. And no a model train isn't the same as a brand new car with missing switches. But posting here will only give rise to people and their sad QC stories.

 

Also people need to understand, Hornby isn't in charge of QC, they've entrusted QC to people in China who are supposed to do their, blaming Hornby solely isn't wise. Happens to every single brand.

 

If people are worried about QC issues, start writing to Hornby instead of posting here. The more direct emails/letters/messages/posts they get the better. Posting here won't do much, yes Hornby has a presence here but they're not going to read each and every post.

Edited January 10, 2019 by MGR Hooper!

[OhOh]

Although I'd firstly have asked the retailer how they intended to address the issue of the faulty item at no extra cost to myself, I'm with the OP on this.

 

I often used to adopt the "oh well, it's good enough" attitude, but a run of faulty goods, ranging from a TV to a wristwatch finally flipped me into sensibility and I now won't accept anything less than perfect and will chase retailers/manufacturers to put things right. Any that prove themselves unable to do so are simply added to my list of businesses that'll no longer get any of my £s.

 

From the OED:

FAULTY: Not working or made correctly; having defects. ‘a faulty brake’

[57xx]

Could you just Photoshop the handrails on?

Edited January 10, 2019 by 57xx

[Brocp]

I'm sorry, but yours is a very silly argument.

 

The OP, who has my sympathy, doesn't need you posting to tell him he hasn't a problem. He clearly has. And how do you think you helped him?

 

Very bad luck there, Rob. Clearly QC is not what it should be. It would not be the first example of the apparent inability to control the quality of Chinese factory output.

 

I'd hate to think of the carbon wheel print of your model by the time you get a fault-free one!

 

Best of luck in resolving this.

Don't be sorry, as i find your response to me quite silly.

 

Where exactly did i say that Rob doesn't have a problem? I said I don't find the model faulty if some small hand rails are missing. That's it, does it help Rob's situation or change the problem? No, as neither does supporting him. How do you think you helped fix the handrails on his 6221?

[Roy Langridge]

Don't be sorry, as i find your response to me quite silly.

 

Where exactly did i say that Rob doesn't have a problem? I said I don't find the model faulty if some small hand rails are missing. That's it, does it help Rob's situation or change the problem? No, as neither does supporting him. How do you think you helped fix the handrails on his 6221?

 

You alone seem to feel the model is not faulty. I suggest you buy a dictionary: "Faulty: Not working or made correctly; having defects" Source: Oxford English Dictionary.

Time for you to stop making replies that, to be honest, I find silly.

Roy

Edited January 10, 2019 by Roy Langridge

[sub39h]

Faulty and incomplete are two completely different things. I'd argue most modellers wouldn't be too bothered with a missing hand rail or lamp iron, but like everyone else wouldn't be happy with a new model with a faulty motor for example. If it does bother people that some small detail part is missing then that's fine and if you're unhappy then return it. But it's not a faulty model in my books, esepcially as I can replace a few small hand rails.

Incomplete = not made properly = faulty. And not what you’d expect from the price we pay these days.

[cctransuk]

You alone seem to feel the model is not faulty. I suggest you buy a dictionary: "Faulty: Not working or made correctly; having defects" Source: Oxford English Dictionary.

Time for you to stop making replies that, to be honest, I find silly.

Roy

 

Now class - EVERYBODY'S being very silly this morning !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Craigw]

Faulty and incomplete are two completely different things. I'd argue most modellers wouldn't be too bothered with a missing hand rail or lamp iron, but like everyone else wouldn't be happy with a new model with a faulty motor for example. If it does bother people that some small detail part is missing then that's fine and if you're unhappy then return it. But it's not a faulty model in my books, esepcially as I can replace a few small hand rails.

 

I too can replace things and rebuild them. But Rob gave details of why he cannot do that and under those circumstances I think he is justified in having a bit of a go at them. Model railways seems to be one of the few hobbies where a manufacturer can get away quite readily with supply models that have missing parts or dont work. Funny attitude really.

 

Craig W

[Brocp]

Meh, as I said, I(!) don't find a model with missing handrails faulty simply because it's a five minute fix for me and what I'd argue is most of us here. While i know Rob's issues, which have been mentioned here and elsewhere before and i do understand his frustration, his modelling is entirely in photoshop, so couldn't he add them in? Or is that asking too much with regards to this?

 

Like I've said, what now feels plenty of times, on this topic is that Hornby does have a QC problem but if this is the worst we have at the moment then I'd take a few missing handrails over broken motors, cracked body sides or anything else that is majorly wrong with a model.

[BWsTrains]

Rob,

 

you have my full sympathy, having myself suffered through 5 faulty locos (all from the Hornby stable (so includes OR) purchased from the UK during 2018. What works mostly for me is:

 

1) finding a Retailer, not necessarily the cheapest who will open your box and check it properly before shipping. If there are any reports of poor running then also request a test run.

2) watch out for reports of specific problems before purchase and get these issues checked

3) If faulty as supplied, look for return cost to be credited, believe me if you push you can get that if you've asked for the goods to be checked!

 

This may mean you have to temper your enthusiasm to buy right on release to reduce your downside risks. Keep in mind that the Retailer needs you and your goodwill,

 

Colin

[Andy Y]

I have flagged the issue up to Simon and if he's able to give a response I'll come back to the topic but for now I'm going to lock it to stifle the distracting semantic debate.

[Andy Y]

I have flagged the issue up to Simon and if he's able to give a response.

It is always difficult to comment on such things without actually seeing the model in the flesh as it were. I am unclear why or how such a model could go through the production process. Unfortunately I have no answer but will obviously forward on to the QA the gentleman's comments and images.

[adb968008]

And how would you want them to do that? Would that include running a loco forwards. backwards, at a crawl and at speed? Would you assume that the shop staff have the expert knowledge to spot, for example, a missing handrail which certainly isn't obvious to me? And would you then be happy to accept that loco which has been handled, run and then replaced in its packaging, and so is indistinguishable from one which has been returned from another customer?

 

And while I'm at it, might I just point out to those advocating 100% inspection of finished models the well-established fact that 100% inspection by humans cannot be relied upon to spot 100% of faults. It also ups the cost.

I buy from Derails, and they do exactly that, with every model purchased.

It comes with a signed card in the box.

 

I now have a large collection of Dans autographed cards, when everyone trades like this, someday those cards too may be valuable...

Otherwise when I have 500, I’ll sell them back to him for reuse.

 

There’s not much excuse for not testing and 5 minutes testing is cheaper than paying for 2 lots of postage (there and back, plus a credit card refund fee), not that with Derails I’ve ever needed, as they arrive, there complete and they work, despite DPD occasionally trying their best.

 

Edited January 10, 2019 by adb968008

[Forester]

Dear All,

 

Although I know from many years of buying Hornby models that many are faulty, I have simply had enough.

 

I bought a R3623 blue Coronation 6221 'Queen Elizabeth' which had missing front top handrails, lovely model otherwise, I thought of trying to repair it but in the end the missing handrails are too small for me or anyone I know to handle so I have returned it to the UK from New Zealand. The seller is excellent (AJM Models) and had refunded everything including UKP16 air post cost.   I lost just UKP6 in currency exchange fees.

 

No winners there.  Except the currency changers.

 

A second R3623 bought about the same time from Kernow arrived this morning.

Picture below.

Img_2627a_r1200ab.jpg

 

Top handrails and cowling handle missing. No sign of anything in the box (for both models, I am wise to these things, open models only over a clean surface). The front bogie is jammed upwards into the body, probably an easy fix.  But the previous one has a packing piece there....

 

The missing parts are not a result of transit. The models left the factory like this. In my opinion.  This is unacceptable but to a degree inevitable if I buy off the web.  I am disabled and currently cannot even leave my house, I have to pay a carer to drive to a post shop agency, which is no fault of Hornby, but it still annoys the hell out of me.   I cannot fix such small and fiddly bits myself.

 

I can hear the braying now, "five minutes work!"   "could you build one yourself for that price?"  "why not buy off a retailer who will open it for you before you buy?"       the nearest retailer at a price even remotely close to the UKprice is 700kms away.

 

Sorry.  Hornby have lost another customer, a very valuable long-term regular buyer

 

I am THAT annoyed.

 

p.s. I am also I think rational and know myself well enough to think that some day I will change my mind, but two out of two glaringly faulty models?  Where is even the most basic quality control?  The models are 98% superb. What kind of company would accept this?

 

Right now I am content to say I will never buy another Hornby product .  Never.

 

Hurrrmff 

 

edited to fix mis-spelt Hornby in title

 

 

You buy so many models, Rob, that if you haven't by now been contacted by a model shop owner here with the offer to check over each item, price-match (or nearly) the main box-shifters and send a guaranteed runner and looker to you as your regular supplier, I think they are all missing a good business opportunity.

 

Hope someone takes note.

[Steamport Southport]

Meh, as I said, I(!) don't find a model with missing handrails faulty simply because it's a five minute fix for me and what I'd argue is most of us here. While i know Rob's issues, which have been mentioned here and elsewhere before and i do understand his frustration, his modelling is entirely in photoshop, so couldn't he add them in? Or is that asking too much with regards to this?

 

Like I've said, what now feels plenty of times, on this topic is that Hornby does have a QC problem but if this is the worst we have at the moment then I'd take a few missing handrails over broken motors, cracked body sides or anything else that is majorly wrong with a model.

 

Yes. But you are dismissing genuine complaints about a model that costs £200. And your reply is Meh! 

 

Who cares whether "you" could just make replacements. That isn't even relevant. If I buy something I want it perfect. Even if I'm planning on cutting it in half with a Dremel.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Andy Y]

Oh, stop arguing.

 

I'll just close the topic again.

[Steamport Southport]

Also regarding retailers opening boxes.

 

No thanks and I wouldn't use a retailer that did. I expect my models factory fresh from the manufacturer.

 

I wouldn't expect Tesco to check my vegetables, HMV to listen to my CDs or the barmaid to taste my beer.

 

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

"Damaged" and "incomplete" are effectively the same thing in consumer terms, in either case the model is defective.

 

John

Industry definitions are “fit for purpose” and “fit for use”, only the two combined provide “value”.

If it works as designed is one thing, if it’s effective is another.

I’d structure a model railway loco in two ways... does it work (use) and does it look right (purpose).

 

I’d argue the effectiveness is degraded by missing parts and so not fit for purpose as a model, even if it is fit for use (though the wheels aren’t touching the track in that picture either), so it’s failed there too.

 

The litmus test is ebay..if you sell it, does it match its peers in the same market place and conditions, if not.. literally..value has been lost.

It’s not fair to pay the same and get something sub-par to everyone else.

 

My sympathies, tbh I would hope the right thing in this case, would be a replacement body shell to be winging its way to you. I would contact Hornby and explain, see what they say, give them a chance to give this story a happy ending.

Edited January 10, 2019 by adb968008

[PM47079]

As always with these situations the more you pay for a model the more your expectations rise. If you have been looking forward to getting a certain model and then get two that have got bits missing it’s bound to be a big disappointment. Let’s hope there isn’t a problem with these models because I am sure Hornby would be disappointed if a large proportion of the product run are returns

[brushman47544]

Unlikely if you’ve bought from two different retailers, but there’ve been previous models reported on here where the same retailer has replaced a faulty model with another faulty one. And remember Rails having all those Tintagel Castles with the smoke box numberplate but none reported elsewhere?

 

My suspicion is that the faulty models identified by QC in the factory are all put aside and then repaired and packed together, so when they arrive in the UK one or a few retailers only get the whole lot. If so, then buying duplicates or replacements from different retailers is sensible.

Edited January 10, 2019 by brushman47544

[robmcg]

I doubt those buying say a new car and found switches for example missing would feel inclined to wire in their own replacements. Different scale same principle. A product should be complete as advertised when sold.

 

The role of the retailers here must also be questioned though. In a face to face sale then any omissions can be dealt with immediately but surely for mail order they are checking the goods before despatch. If not then surely they should.

 

It is quite normal for British consumers to habitually accept second rate goods and services lest they be forced to complain. Stiff upper lip and all that, don't make a fuss. This trait really is bad as it allows suppliers to get away with things.

 

Even if, as they explain, other buyers are happy to accept incomplete goods I am surprised they are, presumably, happy to still pay full price especially if they are then happy to effect their own repairs.

 

The manufacturers and retailers must be laughing behind their backs.

 

Of course this is a principle and the 'happy to repair and pay full price' group make their own choices but by doing so they send a message that others may not subscribe to.

 

Incomplete goods should be returned or at least sold as seen at a discount.

 

By accepting incomplete goods some purchasers are being taken as mugs by manufacturers and retailers who can safely ignore the QC that others expect.

 

The OP is quite right.

 

Thank you so much.

 

My post was written with the disappointment of two faulty models , £340 worth, being faulty and the import-export time delay time-wasting energy-sapping annoyance being uppermost in my mind. I am guilty i that I can and do fix faulty models, but these handrails are too small for me to do well, or even at all

 

I tend to think of them as the face of the locomotive   and the missing bits are glaring, like a portrait of the queen smiling, but oh, a tooth missing?      

 

Kernow have replied overnight (NZ time) offering a checked and test-run replacement, or a full refund including postage, which is good of them, as was AJM a week ago.

 

The thing which surprised me was that Kernow say they have had 'no reports of problems with others sent out', which suggests either I have been unlucky or buyers don't always complain, stoicism and all that. 

 

My feeling in the clearer light of dawn is that untold sales are lost because buyers receive faulty goods,  and Hornby cannot easily measure this except by returns from retailers, but buyers may fix the problem or don't even see it. Some don't even remove models from boxes.

 

It has made buying new off web retailers a gamble I am now very reluctant to take.

Thanks for your summation though.  'Mustn't grumble'....