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jools1959

86101, 86401 and 87002 heading to Europe? Nope!

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8 hours ago, Ed-farms said:

 

I was under the impression it wad the sleeper contract that suddenly allowed them to work on 89001, the question is now that work has gone what future does the badger have? As someone who donated towards the ACLG fund for this engine the idea of them selling it off would leave me wondering whether to ask for my money back (especially if they make a profit after all the work done) and whether any future campaigns should be supported


they arent the first locomotives to be sold by a charity.

45699 benefitted from funds for its missing wheel, today its really now a Commercially used asset. What happened to the generator car funded by Steam Railway magazine donations to replace Ethels in the 1990’s ?

 

 

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On 08/11/2019 at 13:18, Ed-farms said:

 

I was under the impression it wad the sleeper contract that suddenly allowed them to work on 89001, the question is now that work has gone what future does the badger have? As someone who donated towards the ACLG fund for this engine the idea of them selling it off would leave me wondering whether to ask for my money back (especially if they make a profit after all the work done) and whether any future campaigns should be supported

Consider that the sale price of two ACs in full working order makes a lot of funds available to support 89001 and the rest of the fleet.  I don't think anyone will be rushing to cash in their shares in Electric Traction Limited.  Having been involved in a small way with the ACLG since its inception 22 years ago, I would hope we always made it clear that in the event of any change of policy regarding a locomotive, funds collected would always be used to support the rest of the fleet.  No-one made a profit from the exercises.

Some years ago we actually returned a donation from one chap who was ONLY interested in Class 87s (he also described cabbing them at Crewe ED at a time when it certainly wasn't open to the public, which was something we didn't want to be associated with).

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Not for me to know or say but selling two working locos outright should have generated alot more income than the ECS contracts, but there might be differences of opinion as to how the money is used. The 89 has been mentioned but what about a permanent home, as enjoyed by the DPS etc? Otherwise the remaining locos risk rotting outside, devoid of attention unless effective undercover space can be found, even if this means disbanding the remaining collection at Barrow Hill...? 

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If selling 86101 and 87002 generates cash to plow into 89001’s restoration and hopefully back on the mainline, I can only applaud the move.  Even as a charity, getting the loco out and earning money has got to be better for all involved rather than it just sit quietly on a siding rusting away.

 

I kind of hope that it’s taken under LSL’s umbrella as a custodian, with them getting it ready for rail tours etc, and the ACLG retaining ownership.

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On 09/11/2019 at 22:42, jools1959 said:

If selling 86101 and 87002 generates cash to plow into 89001’s restoration and hopefully back on the mainline, I can only applaud the move.  Even as a charity, getting the loco out and earning money has got to be better for all involved rather than it just sit quietly on a siding rusting away.

 

I kind of hope that it’s taken under LSL’s umbrella as a custodian, with them getting it ready for rail tours etc, and the ACLG retaining ownership.

 

It does make me wonder how much work there actually is for the the 89 though? Preserving and conserving the loco i can quite understand. But pouring lots of money into getting it mainline fit I'm not so sure about. The real issue with electric locos is that you're never going to be able to run them on a preserved line.

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There's some work for electric locos on the main line. Wasn't there a regular tour from MK to Carlisle and back that used an electric loco for MK to about Preston, took a steam engine over Shap, came back via the S&C and ran back south with the electric?

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1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

There's some work for electric locos on the main line. Wasn't there a regular tour from MK to Carlisle and back that used an electric loco for MK to about Preston, took a steam engine over Shap, came back via the S&C and ran back south with the electric?

 

86259, operated by WCRC.

 

This was today's LE move:

 

 

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4 hours ago, Zomboid said:

There's some work for electric locos on the main line. Wasn't there a regular tour from MK to Carlisle and back that used an electric loco for MK to about Preston, took a steam engine over Shap, came back via the S&C and ran back south with the electric?

possibly not enough, 87002/86401/101 (and 86213 too) were up for sale once before, then GBRF stepped in with the sleeper job, otherwise they were supposedly gonners...

I was on the deadline date WCME railtour in 2013, where after 60009 was taken off, 87002 was hooked onto the empty WCME stock at Carlisle to provide heating to the stock, which was widely thought to be its last ever job, that very day.

 

It was quite emotional, as the driver climbed out, stepped into the 4ft and took his own photographs, as everyone thought today was it.

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Fortunately GBRF gave them a future, but now that job is over, That they’ve sold two of 3 working locos suggests they’ve no confidence in a future hire market, which leads me to question why 89001 would be any different ?

 

Given there’s 31 class 91s up for grabs, and touted for Export to Europe to work in pairs on freight trains there, suggests they too have not much future here...

 

So unless there’s an operator needing 1 single 125mph AC electric loco, i’m not sure what 89001 offers that 86101/87002 can’t... LSL will make reasonable use from them, just as WCRC does using 86259. The only thing that comes to mind for 89001 beyond ad-hoc charter work, is something like a PretendAzuma or another need for a Pretendalino, or maybe GBRF needs a spare sleeper loco with Dellners. I was interested to read 89001’s TDM equipment was overhauled... something I wouldnt have thought necessary for railtours, freight or sleeper work... perhaps Network Rail is building a new test train and needs an 89 ?

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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On 11/11/2019 at 18:37, adb968008 said:

possibly not enough, 87002/86401/101 (and 86213 too) were up for sale once before, then GBRF stepped in with the sleeper job, otherwise they were supposedly gonners...

I was on the deadline date WCME railtour in 2013, where after 60009 was taken off, 87002 was hooked onto the empty WCME stock at Carlisle to provide heating to the stock, which was widely thought to be its last ever job, that very day.

 

It was quite emotional, as the driver climbed out, stepped into the 4ft and took his own photographs, as everyone thought today was it.

 

 

Fortunately GBRF gave them a future, but now that job is over, That they’ve sold two of 3 working locos suggests they’ve no confidence in a future hire market, which leads me to question why 89001 would be any different ?

 

Given there’s 31 class 91s up for grabs, and touted for Export to Europe to work in pairs on freight trains there, suggests they too have not much future here...

 

So unless there’s an operator needing 1 single 125mph AC electric loco, i’m not sure what 89001 offers that 86101/87002 can’t... LSL will make reasonable use from them, just as WCRC does using 86259. The only thing that comes to mind for 89001 beyond ad-hoc charter work, is something like a PretendAzuma or another need for a Pretendalino, or maybe GBRF needs a spare sleeper loco with Dellners. I was interested to read 89001’s TDM equipment was overhauled... something I wouldnt have thought necessary for railtours, freight or sleeper work... perhaps Network Rail is building a new test train and needs an 89 ?

 

 

Totally agree.

If ETL have decided the ALs don't have a future on the main line I am puzzled as to the future of the "badger".  AIUI the last 91 goes off lease in June 2020 so I assume the LNER Mk4s also finish then. LNER HST's gone in six weeks and GA Mk3s in  months. This suggests to me that there won't be any TDM stock for the 89 to  work with anyway. Perhaps the future is charters, who knows 

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3 hours ago, 298 said:

Maroon 86, anyone....?

Already booked to move to Maroon town

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18 hours ago, 298 said:

Maroon 86, anyone....?

Noooooo. Electric Blue or Intercity please

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1 hour ago, RP82 said:

Noooooo. Electric Blue or Intercity please

If it's running they can paint it in IOW style dinosaur livery for all I care...

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3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

If it's running they can paint it in IOW style dinosaur livery for all I care...

Livery wise not particularly my cup of tea.

But at least we will hopefully have another working example of premier West Coast traction to enjoy.

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5 hours ago, Zomboid said:

If it's running they can paint it in IOW style dinosaur livery for all I care...

At what future for 86259 though.. ?

 

I’m surprised its taken WCRC so long to get themselves an AC Electric, when most of their London centric steam actually involves a 3.5hr trip up north.

Maybe one or two more if Freightliner finishes with them may make sense too ?

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35 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

At what future for 86259 though.. ?

 

I’m surprised its taken WCRC so long to get themselves an AC Electric, when most of their London centric steam actually involves a 3.5hr trip up north.

Maybe one or two more if Freightliner finishes with them may make sense too ?

How many AC electric locos do you think you need to run one train a week?

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1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

How many AC electric locos do you think you need to run one train a week?

Same logic says WCRC only need 1 steam loco and one diesel  too.

Edited by adb968008

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1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

Same logic says WCRC only need 1 steam loco too then.

Not really, the electric is only used on the ECS positioning move, the paying public want different steam locos on the front of their passenger trains.

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12 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Not really, the electric is only used on the ECS positioning move, the paying public want different steam locos on the front of their passenger trains.

pantomime begins,..

oh no it isnt..

 

86259 has single handedly made the Cumbrian Mountain Express viable For several years, as Network rail insist on an AC electric loco on the path from Euston. On the odd occasion hasn't been available odd work arounds were required, including double headed 47’s (which lose considerable time) or cancelations.

 

indeed as an ECS loco 86259 is pretty much useless.. theres no continuous overhead between Wembley and Southall.. so its very limited there, and northbound it comes off at Carnforth, trips back to Lostock Hall for the return CME, meaning the Stock sits in the platform at Carlilse.

 

so back to why they need more than 1...

 

redundancy, reliability, spare parts, availability and that government rules on diesels in the future will apply to all tocs not just the ones you want it to... indeed diesels probably  have less of a future in a few decades time on the mainline than steam locos do..... convincing a government minister to make an exception for steam loco will be a lot easier than one for a Deltic for a railtour or a duff for an ecs.. no matter how hard you try ! 
so buy whilst you can, as since privatisation 25 years ago  only 10 AC electric locos have been built.., and between remaining 86/90/91/92 theres less than 100 in the country..and theres no rush to save the 31 class 91’s.

Edited by adb968008

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So your 'defence' is one particular train where the (steam wanting) clientele have to endure an electric loco for the boring bit until the steamer is put on for the interesting bit. 

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14 minutes ago, royaloak said:

So your 'defence' is one particular train where the (steam wanting) clientele have to endure an electric loco for the boring bit until the steamer is put on for the interesting bit. 

Its the difference between £60-75k of weekly revenue from London to Cumbria or not at all.

 

CME is a bread and butter service.. 20+ times a year.

 

That its been trusted to 1 loco to make it happen is amazing.. whats more, is for the most part, its reliably done it too.

86259 has probably done more revenue railtours than most of the rest of the fleet (given WCRC has 20+ Diesel locos to share the other work between).

 

The WCML isnt going to get slower / quieter, neither is the GWML and ECML... steam will be pushed further from the capital, so a fast accelerating 100mph electric to cover the gap makes sense, and like London Euston.. be become mandated elsewhere.

 

LSL has already realised this, hence they have bought 4 AC Electrics... 86101/87002/90001/90002.

 

Its just surprised me its taken WCRC soo long to buy an 86 as theyve probably paid handsomely in hire fees for 86259, its done the CME pretty much solo since 2010 at least.

 

Edited by adb968008
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But the point is the passengers on it dont care what electric (or diesel) is on the front, they are only interested in the steamer and they like a variety of them.

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6 minutes ago, royaloak said:

But the point is the passengers on it dont care what electric (or diesel) is on the front, they are only interested in the steamer and they like a variety of them.

Correct they dont.

 

Network Rail does.

 

thats the point your missing.

No 100mph loco from Euston, no railtour from Euston.

A Quick look at Railway Touring Company lists 17 tours from Euston.. CME, Blackpool or CCE... ALL of which will depart Euston with 25kv AC or be canceled, unless a very rare exception is agreed.

 

And with HS2 set to dig up Euston, and GC set to add 4 trains a day to Blackpool.. those 100mph paths are looking set to get tighter.. so a 75mph chuff chuff from Euston is going to get rare, as are 95mph slow accelerating diesels... even Voyagers could restricted from Euston soon... Azumas are coming there too.

 

Youve obviously not travelled up to Cumbria from London in a decade.. as this is nothing new... a railtour day out from London to the borders has been 25kv by default for 9 years already.

 

Edited by adb968008
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