Calling exhibition mangers! What layout types do you want?

[woodenhead]

22 minutes ago, CloggyDog said:

 

I think I'm right in saying that there has been at least 1 steam loco legitimately running on a layout at every DEMU showcase.

Tokenism

 

And don't get me started on the N gauge show and O gauge guild and their insistence on scale, can never purchase a Railroad Adderley Hall at either of their shows.

[woodenhead]

27 minutes ago, CloggyDog said:

DEMU was relatively easy - a selection of D&E (nee Modern Image) covering across the scales, eras* and prototype

 

*yes, even back 15 years ago there were multiple 'eras' within D&E/MI covering the early transition late-50/60s, end of steam, corporate blue, sectorisation and privatisation - there were a few moans if I didn't get the balance right and booked either too many or too few EWS-era layouts!

And it's only going to get harder as the D/E period widens and the TOCS keep changing liveries.

 

Steam is Pre-grouping, Big 4, Wartime and post Nationalisation then there is a crossover period that can sort of fit in both camps before D/E kicks in in 1968.

 

With the current mix it is almost like we're going backwards to the pre-grouping period with all the permutations of train companies even Virgin, one of the originals, has had four distinct liveries since inception.

 

I don't envy the task of satisfying a baying DEMU massive.

[Edwardian]

I would like to see a variety.  A variety in gauges and scale, foreign and domestic and period and region.

 

Within that, i think there is a need for pre-Grouping to fight its corner and ensure that it's included.  i have been to some fairly large exhibitions and seen very little before 1950 and nothing before 1930.  I fear that one or two Grouping and no pre-Grouping has become the norm.

 

Whether it is down to exhibitors or managers or both, most of the interesting early stuff tends to be confined to more specialist shows, whether of the finescale or the scale specific variety.

 

I mentioned this after a disappointing exhibition,and one of the organisers said that he didn't know of any pre-Grouping exhibition layouts.  I could reel half a dozen off, all seen recently, including at his show in recent years. 

 

Even at York, my favourite of the larger exhibitions, there has typically been only one pre-Grouping layout. 

[Phil Parker]

One point to remember - every layout at a show is the result of many hours hard work by someone. It's the best they can do and they are proud of it.

[TheQ]

Trailers are another alternative to hiring vans,  my own is a 6x4 ft,  on which I'll be transporting a 15ft by 6ft L shaped n gauge layout. No extra tax,  a small amount of extra fuel used, a small amount of extra maintenance and for a trailer that size almost any car can tow it. 

[griffgriff]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Tokenism

 

And don't get me started on the N gauge show and O gauge guild and their insistence on scale, can never purchase a Railroad Adderley Hall at either of their shows.

SCALE!  You mean gauge surely

 

Griff

[south_tyne]

On 26/03/2019 at 18:07, Edwardian said:

I would like to see a variety.  A variety in gauges and scale, foreign and domestic and period and region.

 

 

Agreed. Surely the best exhibitions offer something for everyone in a variety of scales, size, prototypes, periods, locations, gauge etc. Obviously it is easier for larger exhibtions to get such a spread but it is possible to achieve in smaller shows too. My local exhibition, Perth Green in Jarrow, always makes an excellent job of getting this kind of mix and variety. 

 

So, in the answer to the original question, surely anything and everything to cover all of these variables! 

[Edwardian]

7 hours ago, south_tyne said:

 

Agreed. Surely the best exhibitions offer something for everyone in a variety of scales, size, prototypes, periods, locations, gauge etc. Obviously it is easier for larger exhibtions to get such a spread but it is possible to achieve in smaller shows too. My local exhibition, Perth Green in Jarrow, always makes an excellent job of getting this kind of mix and variety. 

 

So, in the answer to the original question, surely anything and everything to cover all of these variables! 

 

I think your  conclusion is, indeed, the answer. 

 

Good modelling is good modelling, regardless of gauge, scale period etc.  

 

Clubs have to balance two things - what the members want to model and providing sufficient variety to please the public and show the full scope of the hobby. 

 

In my experience as an attendee, if that difficult balance is not struck, one ends up with an awful number of layouts set broadly in the same era and sometimes nothing remotely historical.

 

For those of us who did not go trainspotting in the '50s and '60s, it is important to concentrate on the quality of the modelling in order to overcome the superficial sameness!

 

But, there are all sorts of layouts available to the exhibition circuit, so I believe that variety is possible to achieve, where managers are aware of the need for it.

[south_tyne]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

I think your  conclusion is, indeed, the answer. 

 

Good modelling is good modelling, regardless of gauge, scale period etc.  

 

Clubs have to balance two things - what the members want to model and providing sufficient variety to please the public and show the full scope of the hobby. 

 

In my experience as an attendee, if that difficult balance is not struck, one ends up with an awful number of layouts set broadly in the same era and sometimes nothing remotely historical.

 

For those of us who did not go trainspotting in the '50s and '60s, it is important to concentrate on the quality of the modelling in order to overcome the superficial sameness!

 

But, there are all sorts of layouts available to the exhibition circuit, so I believe that variety is possible to achieve, where managers are aware of the need for it.

 

Agreed. We should be able to appreciate good modelling can if it is not within our usual sphere of interest. My main interest is 7mm scale and in industrial and light railways, but I can take inspiration from any railway modelling. I think those who wouldn't look at a layout because it is, for instance, 'foreign', narrow gauge or N gauge (just as a few random examples) are closed-minded. 

 

Ultimately, it's difficult for exhibition managers because they can only invite this variety of layouts if there are the layouts out there. I do have sympathy in this regard. Also cost will come into it; I have no personal experience of organising a show but I anticipate it is easier and cheaper to invite half a dozen small local layouts than hosting one very large example from further afield with associated costs of can hire, travel, accommodation etc. But what a number of smaller layouts can offer is a good variety.

 

If it isn't achieved then, as you rightly say, a show can become very 'same-y'. A few years ago it would have overwhelmingly been 1950s/'60s era 4mm scale layouts but that default is starting to creep towards 1970s and 1980s diesel layouts. I suppose the advantage of the internet-age is that we can check what layouts are to be shown before attending a show, and if nothing fits our interest then we can make the decision to stay away. However that does mean we might miss the odd random gem! 

 

There is definitely a place for specialist shows. These can be scale, era or genre specific or finescale in nature. There are also those shows which are more geared for traders rather than layouts. However, for the general, everyday, run-of-the mill exhibition, variety is the spice of life!

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 26/03/2019 at 19:13, Phil Parker said:

One point to remember - every layout at a show is the result of many hours hard work by someone. It's the best they can do and they are proud of it.

 

I try to be tolerant and recognise that there are many ways to enjoy this hobby.

 

But there are some layouts which really are not fit to be seen at an exhibition that people are paying to get into.

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

I think your  conclusion is, indeed, the answer. 

 

Good modelling is good modelling, regardless of gauge, scale period etc.  

 

Clubs have to balance two things - what the members want to model and providing sufficient variety to please the public and show the full scope of the hobby. 

 

In my experience as an attendee, if that difficult balance is not struck, one ends up with an awful number of layouts set broadly in the same era and sometimes nothing remotely historical.

 

For those of us who did not go trainspotting in the '50s and '60s, it is important to concentrate on the quality of the modelling in order to overcome the superficial sameness!

 

But, there are all sorts of layouts available to the exhibition circuit, so I believe that variety is possible to achieve, where managers are aware of the need for it.

I agree that good modelling should have little to do with gauge modelling, but some  "exhibition" layouts perhaps shouldn't be classed as "good modelling" unless you have a very wide definition of modelling. I have seen layouts that were well modelled architecturally let down by poor trackwork and inappropriate stock that, for me, destroyed the effect. I have likewise seen three adjacent 00 different layouts at one large show that varied from reasonable to excellent, through different attention to detail.

 

It is also easier to create a layout using RTR stock, which rather mitigates against more "historical" layouts unless you are willing to build your own locos, stock, etc. There is no shortage of suitable kits available, in both 4mm and 7mm, but layouts based on these are the exception rather than the rule, especially in 4mm.

 

Do many people who attend shows recognise and appreciate good modelling? In my experience over a number of years it is often the ladies who are interested in the "creative" modelling, while the children and men mainly just want to see the trains run.

 

 

[Flood]

On 26/03/2019 at 16:53, CloggyDog said:

 

I think I'm right in saying that there has been at least 1 steam loco legitimately running on a layout at every DEMU showcase.

 

The photo is actually at Wigan Exhibition but the affect is the same.

[Clive Mortimore]

On 26/03/2019 at 16:53, CloggyDog said:

 

I think I'm right in saying that there has been at least 1 steam loco legitimately running on a layout at every DEMU showcase.

I did B1 number 19 on Hanging Hill.

 

Back to the OP's question. if I were an exhibition manager I think I would ask those who regularly voice their opinions about what layouts are at shows to bring their layout to the next show.  Then at least one layout would be right for them. Can that be the show that opens before the advertised start time if I have woken up early and close later if I have over slept. 

 

[queensquare]

On 26/03/2019 at 16:38, woodenhead said:

I don't understand why DEMU has no steam layouts or Scalefour North has no N gauge layouts attending.

 

Not N gauge but we have been to expo EM twice with a 2FS layout and demo as the guest scale, I did a similar thing at the S4 AGM a number of years ago and in a couple of weeks we will be at the Gauge O Guild's NEWGOG in Newport for the second time. Modellers tend to like to see good modelling, for most scale and subject are secondary.

 

Jerry

[Clive Mortimore]

On 25/03/2019 at 17:56, muddy water said:

Just been to Ally Pally and seen a nice selection of layouts. Some have been on the circuit for a number of years. It was also mentioned that they had all been seen up north as well.

So my question is what do exhibition managers want for the next generation of layouts? 

We have had GWR BLTs, countless companies TMDs, boxfiles and now cakeboxes!

 

There were a few very new layouts, mine Pig Lane (Western Region) was on its second exhibition and does Retford count as up north?

 

By the time many layouts come to the attention of the show managers of the larger shows they have normally done the rounds and would have been seen by some people at smaller shows.

 

 

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, queensquare said:

 

Not N gauge but we have been to expo EM twice with a 2FS layout and demo as the guest scale, I did a similar thing at the S4 AGM a number of years ago and in a couple of weeks we will be at the Gauge O Guild's NEWGOG in Newport for the second time. Modellers tend to like to see good modelling, for most scale and subject are secondary.

 

Jerry

DEMU used to do an off area model as well - they had a rather nice Ayrshire (I think) layout a couple of years back that was mainly green diesels but they were allowed to play with their steam engines too.

 

Expo EM North in usually has one 'other' scale model as well.

 

When I go to an exhibition it is quality not gauge or scale that matters to me too - though I have a soft spot for 2mm FS - still don't understand why 2mm FS steam models can use a very simple discreet mechanism to connect the motor in the tender with the wheels in the loco whilst Dapol put in something more akin to an above floor mechanical stoker.

[toplink@()1989))((]

I am not usually a fan of N/2mm scale/gauge layouts as they don't appeal to me. There is nothing wrong with them its just a personal choice.

4mm, whether OO, EM or P4 are not my bag either these days, I think it may be my eyesight getting worse.

So that leaves me with my own preferred scale/gauge, O f/s. I know it is getting more popular with the RTR models that are appearing almost daily but it doesn't seem to be transferring to the exhibitions, with the exception of the recent Lincoln show, almost as many O gauge layouts as 4mm plus a good number of N too. Much better balance.

Now having said all that, once I have had a good look at the O presence I will go around all the other layouts and can appreciate the workmanship that has been put into them regardless of scale. However that can't be said of some other show attendees I have noticed. 

At a lot of shows I have visited, fans of OO or N seem to either ignore or seem to look down on O gauge. Not all!! but a few, and some have even been overheard, by myself, to say, "not for me, too expensive, too big, cheque book modellers, everything has to be built from kits etc etc, it almost seems to me to be a kind of snobbery, or maybe I'm just thin skinned.

 

Anyway, back to the original question, what do show managers look for, obviously they go to other shows and look what is out there, but there doe's seem to be quite a few layouts that get repeatedly seen at other shows, not a lot of new stuff. If the organisers where to give contact details in their programmes for potential new exhibits, I think it would give the hobby some fresh exhibits and maybe get some new blood on the show circle.

 

Finally as I said first off, my preferred scale is 7mm, but I can appreciate good modelling in any scale. Variety is good.  

 

Cheer's, Pete.

[Gordon H]

On ‎26‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 16:45, peach james said:

I suspect I am far from the only one on the forum whose choice of 2nd vehicle on the driveway was in part directed by what is needed for ones hobby interests (and one's spouse's interests...I had to be able to move a horse box) .

 

 

Noting your location as BC, you probably have no problems with space for putting such additional vehicles.

Many in the UK don't have driveways, let alone space for a second vehicle.

[lyneux]

As the current exhibition manager (of DEMU Showcase) as well as someone who had a layout at Ally Pally last weekend, I'm not sure whether I should get drawn into the debate... 

 

As far as I know, I don't think that Oldshaw has been seen north of Birmingham... a fact that we hope to remedy next year by attending the Derby show!

 

Regarding what we select at DEMU, the selection factors are:

 

- A good mix of scales (although we can only book what is available)

- Modelling quality (goes without saying for a specialist show!)

- A mix of sizes with ideally at least a couple of large continuous-run layouts.

- Cost of layouts (affected by transport costs and number of operators)

- Member representation (we want to support our membership)

 

Guy

Edited March 28, 2019 by lyneux

[Crewlisle]

On 26/03/2019 at 07:01, spikey said:

Dunno about managers, but as a potential punter I'd like to see ...

 

Layouts on which at least one train is usually running, preferably at something like scale speed.

 

Layouts on which The Hand Of God is not needed to get locomotives over points.

 

Layouts of which the operators are not too busy chatting to each other or eating to run trains.

 

 

 

 Spikey,

 

I agree with the above points you made, although occasionly the 'Hand of God' cannot be avoided - even on the best layouts!

 

One thing no one has mentioned is letting children operate one part of the railway.  On 'Crewlisle', my outside operator encourages children to have a go at either driving a loco from the goods yard, steam or diesel shed onto the hand operated turntable & then let them turn the loco (one handle inside operating well & one outside).  Or they can take charge of a train on the continuous run, run it round & stop it in the station.  My operator holds the controller with a finger hovering above the emergency stop button!  It makes their day & might give them some inspiration to build their own layout.

 

The era on 'Crewlisle' is the WCML from LMR steam locos in the 1950s, blue & green diesels, 86/87s with catenary & finishing with the APT.  We run a minimum of two trains simultaneously & sometimes as many as four.  I always say that it is not the most prototypical or detailed but it entertains.  It will be having its final outing at the NEC in November as the baseboards seem to get heavier at each exhibition!

 

Peter