In need of inspiration - a main line in miniature

[Richie Kynaston]

Afternoon guys,

I have been dawdling about over building a new layout for far too long, so I am looking for a bit of inspiration and advice.  I have long hankered after recreating a main line in miniature - not all of it, just a section!  But I am looking towards double, or quadruple track, set in the early 1960s (allowing a crossover of steam and diesel power) or mid-1970s, featuring a City style station with freight through workings, but also perhaps some countryside running, or exiting the city on viaducts.

 

Because I have a wide-ranging interest base, I have considered the former LNER/NER areas and Somerset/Devon on the GWR. I am fortunate in having a large space, of around 19 foot long by 10ft wide, with the ability to 'really to go town' and add an extra section lengthways down the middle, which for description purposes could give a figure of '8' style if needed.  I have come to the conclusion that N gauge is the way forward to give scale length trains without it looking crammed in, although for motive power variety I did consider OO, but concluded that even with 19ft length, the kind of railway I am looking forward could (and likely would) end up being squashed in.

 

Having had a bit of a clear out of things, I am going to this with no stock, so have the freedom and flexibility to locate it anywhere that suits.  Where have I looked at so far?  Well, I considered something based on Exeter St. Davids as it was in semaphore days.  A busy five platform station, which at the time still had the freight loops around the back, with the layout potentially extending (with a couple of 'added' corners!) to Cowley Bridge.  I've always loved the look of the diamonds at Newcastle and the ability to recreate those would really give an interesting layout to operate I think, but I do love anything A1-A4 Pacific, Peaks, and Deltics!  At the other end of the scale, I have also considered the double-track railway south of Plymouth on the approach to and passing through Devonport station - a basic two-track railway, but with an almost hidden goods yard at one end.

 

I enjoy building layouts and creating the scenery, but get my real enjoyment through realistic operation, either by timetabled operations or prototypical working. The layout would most likely be DCC controlled - unsure whether I would go DCC sound or not - but certainly DCC control.  Trackwise i would look to use Code 40 Finetrax, but im also happy to work with copper clad sleepers and handbuild trackwork (ie in the case of the Newcastle diamonds)

 

Given all of the above, does anyone have any thoughts or flashes of inspiration?

 

Richie

[AndyB]

Sounds ambitious. 

You mention Newcastle. As a starting point you might want to take a look at the Peco N gauge plan book which sets out a version of Newcastle (Plan 18) in a space 17' 3" by 11' 3". Obviously you'd not be using Setrack, but it might give you some food for thought?

 

[The Johnster]

Newcastle is a major station and probably a bit much for a single operator if you are going to maintain a realistic intensity of service.  

 

As a a track plan, might I suggest Llanelli.  Double track main line through station with Central Wales dmus reversing, traditional goods yard doubling as stabling point for locos and a good ‘traffic biodiversity’, and the station is on a curve so could be incorporated in the end of a continuous run layout.  South Wales is not your stated areas but could provide inspiration, particularly if you’re into WR hydraulics.  Peaks are possible but no Deltics/Gresleys, sorry.  

 

For an ECML suggestion, how about Selby?

[DCB]

I do wonder about "A busy 5 platform station."  We operate a not very busy 4 platform plus bay station and most of the time its like a set of storage sidings where nothing happens. 

Exeter St Davids operated as 2 stations, the GWR had the platform nearest the entrance as the down line, the Southern the next two on an Island and the GW the next two as the up line.   GWR Trains divided for the Paignton line and Plymouth at St Davids for many years until Newton Abbott was rebuilt in the 1930s and took over this role.

The GWR had very few multi platform stations compared to other lines and many of the ones it did have were shared with other railways.

Its a bit far west but Cornwall strikes me as a good subject to model, Par with a branch to Newquay etc, or Bodmin Road or Truro,   Brent in Devon with the Kingsbridge branch and double headed trains, short freights because of the gradients etc 

Newcastle is fantastic but you are likely to need two or three lifetimes to model it.

 

 

[Richie Kynaston]

Evening chaps,

Thanks to Andy, The Johnster and David for your input so far.  I guess this is a bit of a rattle the tin and see what falls out approach!  But all comments, criticisms and thoughts are welcomed.

 

3 hours ago, AndyB said:

Sounds ambitious. 

You mention Newcastle. As a starting point you might want to take a look at the Peco N gauge plan book which sets out a version of Newcastle (Plan 18) in a space 17' 3" by 11' 3". Obviously you'd not be using Setrack, but it might give you some food for thought?

 

 

Yes, i'll go with ambitious - to be honest, thats the one thing that puts me off. Im more than happy to spend time working on the trackwork before being able to run a train, as I get as much enjoyment out of that (and ssssh.. but also enjoy electrics!) as running, although doing the latter correctly and prototypically does give me the ultimate buzz.  I'll have a look at the N gauge plan you've suggested.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Newcastle is a major station and probably a bit much for a single operator if you are going to maintain a realistic intensity of service.  

 

As a a track plan, might I suggest Llanelli.  Double track main line through station with Central Wales dmus reversing, traditional goods yard doubling as stabling point for locos and a good ‘traffic biodiversity’, and the station is on a curve so could be incorporated in the end of a continuous run layout.  South Wales is not your stated areas but could provide inspiration, particularly if you’re into WR hydraulics.  Peaks are possible but no Deltics/Gresleys, sorry.  

 

For an ECML suggestion, how about Selby?

 

Thats a valid point.  It could be set up on DCC to queue up services and depart them to a timetable from the fiddle yards by computer, leaving me with manual control of the station area, but i take your comment on board.  Llanelli is not a place i've visited or even looked at, but I will admit, it does sound interesting, so will do a bit of research and reading up on that.  Selby is good thought, and I had considered it, but to make it right, it really does need an accurate representation of the swing bridge.  While i'm ok (I may even venture to 'quite good'!) at buildings, im not sure I could nail the bridge.  While it would not have to be spot on of course, it would niggle away at me if i didn't get it reasonably right!

 

42 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

I do wonder about "A busy 5 platform station."  We operate a not very busy 4 platform plus bay station and most of the time its like a set of storage sidings where nothing happens. 

Exeter St Davids operated as 2 stations, the GWR had the platform nearest the entrance as the down line, the Southern the next two on an Island and the GW the next two as the up line.   GWR Trains divided for the Paignton line and Plymouth at St Davids for many years until Newton Abbott was rebuilt in the 1930s and took over this role.

The GWR had very few multi platform stations compared to other lines and many of the ones it did have were shared with other railways.

Its a bit far west but Cornwall strikes me as a good subject to model, Par with a branch to Newquay etc, or Bodmin Road or Truro,   Brent in Devon with the Kingsbridge branch and double headed trains, short freights because of the gradients etc 

Newcastle is fantastic but you are likely to need two or three lifetimes to model it.

 

You make a valid point about St Davids.  Thinking about all the pictures i've looked at the GWR/SR segregation is obvious, but that had not occurred to me.   Par has always struck me as being an interesting location, as has Lostwitheal to be honest, both worthy of another look.  I'm only 40, so I am hoping there is ample time left to complete such a challenge!!  But if you find any way of getting "two or three lifetimes" for modelling purposes (or any other come to that!) do please let me know!  Newcastle is a catch 24 situation.  The variety of LNER types now available in OO draws me towards something Eastern in OO, but the ability to display trains in a setting, where the railway is actually a small part of the scenery, as it is in reality, makes me think N really is the way to go.

 

 

Richie

 

[mdvle]

Is this intended for only you to operate, or it is a group of friends over to operate?

 

A group of friends then yes a 4 or 5 platform station becomes viable, but for solo operation where you realistically can only operate 1 train at a time, then you end up with a bunch of empty tracks or parked trains and the timetable becomes your enemy when you try to operate.

 

Unless you are really into computers I would try and avoid automating the trains - it is just one more thing to have to maintain or to fail when you try and run trains.

 

I am not familiar with N, but my first suggestion would be to see if the models that interest you are available.

 

On the assumption appropriate GWR/Western Region models are available, and you have already expressed an interest, given your space you may want to consider Truro.  Offers a through station, goods yard, engine shed, viaduct and a quick measure on Google Maps comes out at around 2700' from the east end of the viaduct to the western limit of the engine shed area - divide by 148 and you get about 18.25' in N.  So with very little compression you could fit it into your space.  It would offer you various operating choices depend on how much time and how you feel on any given day.

 

Brent has also been mentioned, and if you wanted the variety of operating either mainline or a branch it may offer what you want.  The station itself was between 2 road bridges, which works out to 5.5' in N so you could model it and the branch approaches to scale, and then likely have 1 or 2 of the branch stations close to scale with countryside single track running if you wanted.

[AndyB]

Another consideration relates to the sizeable space you have and the sheer amount of modelling you'll have to do in N gauge to fill it.

This would be a particular concern for an urban scene? Endless manufacture of buildings may begin to dampen your enthusiasm over time?

You are obviously aiming to set a high standard for modelling as you mention the trackwork. It'd be a shame if this wasn't reflected in the scenery due to time constraints. 

Having said all that, the idea of Deltics and A3s with full length trains is something I'd like to see! 

[Richie Kynaston]

11 hours ago, mdvle said:

Is this intended for only you to operate, or it is a group of friends over to operate?

 

A group of friends then yes a 4 or 5 platform station becomes viable, but for solo operation where you realistically can only operate 1 train at a time, then you end up with a bunch of empty tracks or parked trains and the timetable becomes your enemy when you try to operate.

 

Unless you are really into computers I would try and avoid automating the trains - it is just one more thing to have to maintain or to fail when you try and run trains.

 

I am not familiar with N, but my first suggestion would be to see if the models that interest you are available.

 

On the assumption appropriate GWR/Western Region models are available, and you have already expressed an interest, given your space you may want to consider Truro.  Offers a through station, goods yard, engine shed, viaduct and a quick measure on Google Maps comes out at around 2700' from the east end of the viaduct to the western limit of the engine shed area - divide by 148 and you get about 18.25' in N.  So with very little compression you could fit it into your space.  It would offer you various operating choices depend on how much time and how you feel on any given day.

 

Brent has also been mentioned, and if you wanted the variety of operating either mainline or a branch it may offer what you want.  The station itself was between 2 road bridges, which works out to 5.5' in N so you could model it and the branch approaches to scale, and then likely have 1 or 2 of the branch stations close to scale with countryside single track running if you wanted.

 

‘Thanks for that. Yes it is primarily just me. I may have friends over at various points but mainly it will be just me. IT I am quite happy with, having a good background knowledge in both IT and electronics. 

 

I am torn between GWR and LNER regions I must admit. Truro is certainly worth looking at. There seems to be a wide number of GWR locos and stock available as well. LNER seems more restricted but with possibilities such as diesels and LMS ‘Black 5s’ and ‘8Fs’ to add to the line-up. Brent does seem to have possibilities so have added that to the list to look at. 

 

I was investigating Llanelli last night as previously suggested. That also brought to mind Grimsby, as it used to be. Three platforms through freight lines, plenty of operating potential, so another option there I think. I approached this on the premise of get the track layout and operating potential sorted, that will then give the operating region. I am beginning to think that I need to sort the region first. Brent certainly ticks the boxes for variety, and allows Kings to appear.

 

GWR wise, there seems to be Halls, Castles and Kings (not applicable south of Plymouth of course) along with Panniers and 2800s. Prairies are on the horizon too. LNER certain A3, A4 and J39s, plus my favourite WDs. I think there are A1s and B1s available second hand too.

 

Richie

[Richie Kynaston]

7 minutes ago, AndyB said:

Another consideration relates to the sizeable space you have and the sheer amount of modelling you'll have to do in N gauge to fill it.

This would be a particular concern for an urban scene? Endless manufacture of buildings may begin to dampen your enthusiasm over time?

You are obviously aiming to set a high standard for modelling as you mention the trackwork. It'd be a shame if this wasn't reflected in the scenery due to time constraints. 

Having said all that, the idea of Deltics and A3s with full length trains is something I'd like to see! 

 

Thanks Andy. Yes that is a consideration - one thought i’ve got is to split it into smaller sections and complete each section scenically at a time. But yes that is a thought. I would like to think that a high standard with photo-realistic scenes can be achieved.

 

I do echo your comments about Deltics and A4s lol!

[AndyB]

One word of caution about splitting it into a series of smaller layouts to be completed in series is that your modelling standard will improve over time. So, the look of the layout will vary from one section to another and you may end up electing to re-do large swaithes of the early bits.

 

 

[Richie Kynaston]

Hi Andy,

Hmm yes, that is a very valid point actually.  Maybe the better way is to split the scenery into small projects across the whole layout and rather than progressing in a series, clcokwork or anti-clockwork way, keep choosing different projects from across the layout so it is mixed.  Thanks for that observation, something I hadn't thought about.

 

Richie

[AndyB]

How about this for a bit of inspiration...

Plan 18 in CJ Freezer's "Plans for Larger Layouts". Itsee an out and back which in OO is 13'6" x 11'.

 

In N gauge you could open up this design quite a lot and if you are operating it on your own you could concentrate on working the terminus and simply send trains out and wait for the to come back again. It has a mix of double track and a bit of "quadruple". 

[Richie Kynaston]

Andy,

Thanks, i’ve heard of Cyril J Freezer’s books but don’t have a copy of the book. Is it possible to PM me a scan of picture taken on a phone? Sounds interesting.

 

Richie

[AndyB]

9 hours ago, Richie Kynaston said:

Andy,

Thanks, i’ve heard of Cyril J Freezer’s books but don’t have a copy of the book. Is it possible to PM me a scan of picture taken on a phone? Sounds interesting.

 

Richie

Hi Richie. I'd be happy to, but I think that might infringe copyright? 

Here's a link and others are on sale on eBay I believe.

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/plans-for-larger-layouts/

Edited April 1, 2019 by AndyB

[Richie Kynaston]

16 hours ago, AndyB said:

Hi Richie. I'd be happy to, but I think that might infringe copyright? 

Here's a link and others are on sale on eBay I believe.

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/plans-for-larger-layouts/

 

No problem, i'll get hold of a copy from Abe or Amazon

Cheers

Richie

 

[AndyB]

Ok, to whet your appetite, here's a sketch of the basic plan. 

No prize for my artwork, but you may get the idea. 

Plenty of scope to build this in stages, starting at the terminus. 

Two stations with 6 platforms, a scenic "country" station and plenty of length of free running. You could almost operate it on a "fire and forget" basis until the train was returning to the terminus. 

BTW, with this much real estate and the chance of scale-length trains, have you done a quick calculation of how much each train formation will cost you? A loco is about £120, coaches around £30. Around £300 for a 6-coach train. 

[Stubby47]

Despite living just outside Truro, my home town of Rhyl was also a large multiplatform station.

A double bay faced west, with the branch to Denbigh and beyond and the woodyard wharf. To the east, under the Vale Rd bridge, was the MPD.

Four lines through the station,  express trains to Holyhead with the Irish Mail and later Freightliner containers.

[Richie Kynaston]

On 01/04/2019 at 18:52, AndyB said:

Ok, to whet your appetite, here's a sketch of the basic plan. 

No prize for my artwork, but you may get the idea. 

Plenty of scope to build this in stages, starting at the terminus. 

Two stations with 6 platforms, a scenic "country" station and plenty of length of free running. You could almost operate it on a "fire and forget" basis until the train was returning to the terminus. 

BTW, with this much real estate and the chance of scale-length trains, have you done a quick calculation of how much each train formation will cost you? A loco is about £120, coaches around £30. Around £300 for a 6-coach train. 

Thanks for that - certainly an interesting proposition I look forward to the book coming even more now !!!  Thanks Andy

 

On 01/04/2019 at 19:22, Stubby47 said:

Despite living just outside Truro, my home town of Rhyl was also a large multiplatform station.

A double bay faced west, with the branch to Denbigh and beyond and the woodyard wharf. To the east, under the Vale Rd bridge, was the MPD.

Four lines through the station,  express trains to Holyhead with the Irish Mail and later Freightliner containers.

 

I recall a B&R archive video called North Wales Steam Holiday which was all footage taken from the 1960s on the North Wales Coast - your mention of Rhyl brought it back to me!  Quite a fascinating place I would think, especially on a Summer Saturday! More food for thought there - cheers Stubby

 

Richie

[Siberian Snooper]

How about Taunton to Norton Fitzwarren, 4 tracks, 4 through platforms several bay platforms at each end a pair of goods avoiding lines at Taunton plus a reasonable sized goods yard and a loco shed. At Norton you have the junctions for the Barnstaple and Minehead branches. If you continue in the London direction, you have the junction for the Chard Branch and Cogload junction, where the lines for London and Bristol split.

 

I'd start by building a circle of track with the necessary turnouts and then add the 2nd track, this will allow you to run trains and then gradually add to the track work  on a progressive basis and the scenery in a similar manner.

 

 

[beast66606]

Millers Dale would make a good through station, 4 to 2 tracks so regulation of trains required, viaducts near the platform ends as well.

 

On 01/04/2019 at 19:22, Stubby47 said:

Despite living just outside Truro, my home town of Rhyl was also a large multiplatform station.

A double bay faced west, with the branch to Denbigh and beyond and the woodyard wharf. To the east, under the Vale Rd bridge, was the MPD.

Four lines through the station,  express trains to Holyhead with the Irish Mail and later Freightliner containers.

 

Five - there was also a down passenger loop as well as up/down slow and up/down fast.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think the OP needs to give a bit more thought to what it is that will give him pleasure when it comes to operating the final layout. Just knowing what type of trains he wants to run may not be enough.

The space available, for N, is simply enormous. Care needs to be taken to design a layout which can be built in stages so that various tasks can be undertaken without becoming too monotonous.

The GNR main line certainly looks like a good prospect, perhaps taking care to pick a location which can give some interesting operation when required as well as the possibility just to watch trains go round.

[AndyB]

Another quick thought. Richie mentions wanting to use DCC.

With the potential for a number of trains running simultaneously he'd maybe need to think about the power available from his chosen control system?

This is obviously getting a bit ahead of things, but controllers are expensive, so worth making sure the right one is selected to start with. 

[Richie Kynaston]

Evening chaps,

 

On 03/04/2019 at 08:28, Siberian Snooper said:

How about Taunton to Norton Fitzwarren, 4 tracks, 4 through platforms several bay platforms at each end a pair of goods avoiding lines at Taunton plus a reasonable sized goods yard and a loco shed. At Norton you have the junctions for the Barnstaple and Minehead branches. If you continue in the London direction, you have the junction for the Chard Branch and Cogload junction, where the lines for London and Bristol split.

 

I'd start by building a circle of track with the necessary turnouts and then add the 2nd track, this will allow you to run trains and then gradually add to the track work  on a progressive basis and the scenery in a similar manner.

 

 

 

Thanks Taunton area was one that I had considered, but to do it justice it would need the goods yard and freight avoiding lines including as well, which possibly starts to become a bit sprawling width wise.  But you have given me an idea about Cogload Junction and the approaches, maybe as part of a scene?  Something else into the mix.

 

On 03/04/2019 at 09:08, beast66606 said:

Millers Dale would make a good through station, 4 to 2 tracks so regulation of trains required, viaducts near the platform ends as well.

 

 

Five - there was also a down passenger loop as well as up/down slow and up/down fast.

 

Thanks Beast - yes MillersDale would be good, again the problem there is those large bridges, which would need to be right to set the scene, and using the location as a basis, changing the name, probably changes the entire set up too much?  I think somebody on rmWeb has attempted, or was looking to attempt Millers Dale in the past?

 

On 03/04/2019 at 09:16, Joseph_Pestell said:

I think the OP needs to give a bit more thought to what it is that will give him pleasure when it comes to operating the final layout. Just knowing what type of trains he wants to run may not be enough.

The space available, for N, is simply enormous. Care needs to be taken to design a layout which can be built in stages so that various tasks can be undertaken without becoming too monotonous.

The GNR main line certainly looks like a good prospect, perhaps taking care to pick a location which can give some interesting operation when required as well as the possibility just to watch trains go round.

 

Yes i would agree with the comments Joseph, that was one of the reasons for the thread - to try and gain some inspiration from others that had a bit more knowledge.  I've got a few options when it comes to operating, but keeping it achievable in sections and/or time is key factor i will admit.

 

2 hours ago, AndyB said:

Another quick thought. Richie mentions wanting to use DCC.

With the potential for a number of trains running simultaneously he'd maybe need to think about the power available from his chosen control system?

This is obviously getting a bit ahead of things, but controllers are expensive, so worth making sure the right one is selected to start with. 

 

Good thought yes - although as Im not convinced about sound in steam locomotives being right yet - getting close, but i still have realism issues with it.  Diesel sound is easier as its very repetitive of course, there are so many variables that change the sound on steam.  So it may just be DCC motor control/lights, which I don't think would take all that much power?

 

Richie

[MarshLane]

Richie,

 

12 hours ago, Richie Kynaston said:

Thanks Taunton area was one that I had considered, but to do it justice it would need the goods yard and freight avoiding lines including as well, which possibly starts to become a bit sprawling width wise.  But you have given me an idea about Cogload Junction and the approaches, maybe as part of a scene?  Something else into the mix.

 

Yes i would agree with the comments Joseph, that was one of the reasons for the thread - to try and gain some inspiration from others that had a bit more knowledge.  I've got a few options when it comes to operating, but keeping it achievable in sections and/or time is key factor i will admit.

 

Good thought yes - although as Im not convinced about sound in steam locomotives being right yet - getting close, but i still have realism issues with it.  Diesel sound is easier as its very repetitive of course, there are so many variables that change the sound on steam.  So it may just be DCC motor control/lights, which I don't think would take all that much power?

 

Just a few thoughts for you, if you are looking at the Taunton / Cogload area, check out the http://www.tauntontrains.co.uk website - in the photo galleries there are loads of old pictures of Taunton 1950s-1990 and more modern that may help you.  Also as Joseph says the space available in N gauge can be huge, but there is nothing to say you have to use it all!  You could always start small and expand.

 

Steam sounds - Others will disagree with me here, because sound is a very personal opinion topic.  Some like it, some don't.  However, I've listened both online and in reality to several steam sounds, and I would agree, some are great, some sound awful.  Without doubt I think Paul Chetter's (@PaulieBanger on here) are the best out there (just my opinion) and I like the vast majority, but my own personal view is that nobody has really got the GWR pannier right?  Paul's project for the Minerva pannier is great and very realistic when its moving (to me that's the point most go wrong, as it sounds to repetitive, but Paul's seems to work!) however, starting off the 'chuffs' seem to end rather abruptly - maybe its me expecting too much from the technology, im not sure.  I absolutely love Paul's diesel projects, they are superb and spot on.  There is a 9F sound - im not sure whose it is, Finescale Brass had it on their 7mm 9F that was on display at Doncaster GOG event and that was super.  I have come to the realisation that steam sounds really need a cam on one of the axles to keep everything in sync, although the Paul tells me the Zimo decoders have a whole host of settings to affect timing of sound events that are very good  and just about remove the need for cam's - but that probably isn't an option on 2mm scale however.

 

But of course, you could fit a standard DCC decoder to locos now, and then upgrade them to sound later on?  The technology continues to improve and move forward.

Rich

[Richie Kynaston]

Chaps,

Thanks for all the input, i’ve got a few logical ideas I think now. One of the obvious things being to get out of the line of thinking that I have of “I have x amount of space, how to fill it!” It really should be more about what do I want to do, I guess.

 

A friend made the very valid point last weekend that the railway really should only be 30-40% of the available space, that way the scenery can be built around it, in such a way as to make it look like the railway was built into the landscape(as in reality) and not the other way round. 

 

Ill come back back with my thoughts and conclusions shortly, but thanks to you all.

 

Richie