GWR 4 wheel full brake

[rprodgers]

A few questions for those more knowledgeable than myself.

 

I assume the majority of these had largely disappeared in the 1930s and there were restrictions on the speed and the stock they could run with....were they also only run with 4/ 6 wheel stock on passenger trains ?

 

Other than passenger trains what other uses would the 4 wheel fill brakes have been used for, thinking especially of diagram V5?

 

I know the SVR own a long lived 4 wheel brake 1399 ( one of four that were then used on milk trains )  a converted  pharmacy van I understand.

 

R

 

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by rprodgers
Correction

[Miss Prism]

Most of the 4-wheeled brakes disappeared probably in the 1920s. If they did run with bogie stock, they tended to be used as vans. (Guards would have preferred the bogie brake vehicles.) Some of the 4- and 6-wheel PBVs became departmental vehicles iirc.

 

Your picture is of an O11, which was a bit of a strange diagram - half siphon, half brake.

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Miss Prism

[The Johnster]

Speed depended on wheelbase, and the long wheelbase 4-wheeled vehicles were permitted 75mph, a situation that pertained until the last CCTs, PMVs, and the like went out of use in the late 70s.  GW passenger 4 wheelers were long a thing of the past by then, of course, but 4 wheeled Southern ‘Van Bs’, and 6 wheeled LMS ‘Stove B’ and LNER ‘BZ’ vans with guards accommodation heated by stoves survived on some specific duties. 

[Steamport Southport]

The V5 were built for services like Ruabon to Dolgelley trains. So they were originally mainline carriages.

 

I think they were downgraded and used on the Tanat Valley and other lines in the area. I've seen a photograph of one in a train of four wheelers behind one of the ex Cambrian 2-4-0Ts certainly post grouping. Probably used to replace old CR carriages.

 

Here's the instructions for the Shirescenes model.

 

http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/resources/S101 Diagram V5 Coach Sides Guide.pdf

 

 

Jason

[Penrhos1920]

V5s were the most modern of the short Passenger Brake Vans and were  numbered 7, 12, 15-18, 20, 1401 - 1420.  The first V5 to be condemned was 15 in 1931, the last was 1401 in 1939.  Nos. 17, 1407 & 1408 were converted to Pilot Vans in 1935 / 1932 / 1932.   Many had their lookouts removed between 1921 & 1925 to become V4.  Only 10 of the 27 built retained lookouts.  Some PBVs had specific allocations, eg:

1403 Milford No.1 train

1408 Newquay No.3 train

1414 Tondu Branch No.1 train in April 1921

1415 return to Oxford 

1420 Porthcawl No.1 train in March 1913

 

The other main types of short PBVs were V1, which were shorter and were scrapped between 1922 & 1929.  V8 which were 1’ longer and were mostly scrapped in the early 1930s.  V13 which were 3’ longer than V5 and were mostly scrapped between in the late 1920s & early 1930s.

 

The other V diagrams were for ‘1 off’ designs.

[Prometheus]

If you are looking to build a V5, and can tolerate a certain amount of compromise [oh, alright, well maybe a fair bit of compromise], a passable one can be knocked up easily from a pair of Triang Clerestory Brake coaches and a Ratio underframe.

 

Tony

[Steamport Southport]

3 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

If you are looking to build a V5, and can tolerate a certain amount of compromise [oh, alright, well maybe a fair bit of compromise], a passable one can be knocked up easily from a pair of Triang Clerestory Brake coaches and a Ratio underframe.

 

Tony

 

Why not just use the Shirescenes sides on a Ratio kit?

 

Far less messing about and you can really go to town on them if you want by using the Mainly Trains chassis kits rather than Ratio parts.

 

https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/shire.php#OOGaugeEtchedSidestoConvertRatioCoaches

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/mt220/

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

Thanks, Jason. I didn't know the venerable Mainly Train chassis kit had been resurrected.

 

[Prometheus]

10 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Why not just use the Shirescenes sides on a Ratio kit?

 

Far less messing about and you can really go to town on them if you want by using the Mainly Trains chassis kits rather than Ratio parts.

 

https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/shire.php#OOGaugeEtchedSidestoConvertRatioCoaches

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/mt220/

 

 

Jason

  

Absolutely Jason, but you’d not then have have the pleasure of creating something which pretends to be a silk purse out if something which was unquestionably a sow’s ear!  

 

Actually, it was a deliberate choice: I enjoy seeing what can be created from these venerable coaches and so absolute accuracy is less a priority than an acceptable outcome. Cheap, too!

 

Tony

[rprodgers]

Thank you all for your thoughts on this topic.

 

I salted away sometime ago a Shirescene kit for the V5 and was looking at including it with some thing other than a rake of 4 wheel coaches.....if not for variety but that they also reduce the length of the train.

 

Since posting I have seen a photo circa 1907 on the Tetbury  branch consisting of what appears to be a 517xx tank ,4 wheel van and a 6 wheel comp?

 

Also there are some similar dated photos of metro hauled trains with a 4 wheel van either in the middle /end of a mixed rake of 6 and 8 wheel stock In Plymouth and Newquay Cornwall areas.

 

I haven’t seen anything similar for early 1920s when I guess most had disappeared 

 

R

 

 

 

 

[Penrhos1920]

On 25/04/2019 at 09:13, rprodgers said:

 

 

Also there are some similar dated photos of metro hauled trains with a 4 wheel van either in the middle /end of a mixed rake of 6 and 8 wheel stock In Plymouth and Newquay Cornwall areas.

 

I haven’t seen anything similar for early 1920s when I guess most had disappeared 

 

R

 

 

 

 

Withdrawal dates for many GWR 4 / 6 wheelers are available from my website, link below, certainly most of those that you are likely to model unless you do some serious scratch building.  As a general rule, pre 1900 coaches lasted 40 years barring accidents.

 

 

[57xx]

On 25/04/2019 at 07:05, Miss Prism said:

Thanks, Jason. I didn't know the venerable Mainly Train chassis kit had been resurrected.

 

 

Nice to see it's still going, although I helped Dave out with his retirement by buying half a dozen when he was closing down. Really must finish building the first one, it's almost there but is still in the To Do box.

[Western Star]

On 26/04/2019 at 20:24, Penrhos1920 said:

Withdrawal dates for many GWR 4 / 6 wheelers are available from my website, link below, certainly most of those that you are likely to model...

I have tried to find the withdrawal dates for the passenger brake vans on the Penrhos web-site and seems to me that those carriages are not yet included.  Anyone care to confirm this thought?

[Penrhos1920]

4 hours ago, Western Star said:

I have tried to find the withdrawal dates for the passenger brake vans on the Penrhos web-site and seems to me that those carriages are not yet included.  Anyone care to confirm this thought?

Correct.  But They’ve been published in the modelling press over the years so I haven’t done that page yet, preferring to focus on coaches that haven’t been written about.  You’ll see that there I are gaps on the brake thirds and clerestory pages.  I’m currently working on a load of clerestory drawings which will hopefully be the next update.

 

I can probably look out information if you’re interested in a particular one.

[Western Star]

21 minutes ago, Penrhos1920 said:

I can probably look out information if you’re interested in a particular one.

I have two 7mm models which require numbers - if you can advise which if any had been withdrawn by 1912 then that shall enable me to avoid a mistake.

 

thank you, Graham

[Penrhos1920]

Any particular diagram Graham?

[Western Star]

1 hour ago, Penrhos1920 said:

Any particular diagram Graham?

Apologies, I have been reading this topic as relating to the V5s...  when the subject is V-diagrams generally.

 

So, I have the Slater's 7mm V5 diagram and these models are for the 1910-1914 period in the London division.

 

thank you, Graham

[Penrhos1920]

All V5s were still as V5s in 1915.  Some had specific branding, typically around your time, so these are not listed below.  Lookouts were removed and conversion to V4 appears to have started after 1920,  The first to be withdrawn was 15 in 1931.

 

1401, 1402, 1404-7, 1409-12, 1416 or 1419

 

1415 was branded 'Return to Oxford' at some time, probably around your time.

[Western Star]

2 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

1401, 1402, 1404-7, 1409-12, 1416 or 1419

Thank you.  Does your research source provide any information on the lighting of this stock?  For example:-  oil lamp or gas (either flat flame or incandesant).

 

thank you, Graham

[Western Star]

Apologies if people feel that this post is moving off-topic.

 

I am looking for photos which show the interior of the guard's compartment / luggage area of coaches from the Dean era.   Can anyone help?

 

thank you, Graham

[Penrhos1920]

22 hours ago, Western Star said:

Thank you.  Does your research source provide any information on the lighting of this stock?  For example:-  oil lamp or gas (either flat flame or incandesant).

 

thank you, Graham

I've no specific information about the lighting of V5s.  But oil lighting stopped being fitted to new builds around 1895, although all new stock for the London metropolitan services were fitted with gas from new in 1884.

 

There was 'random' oil to Gas Flat Flame conversions from 1890.  Stock was still being converted to Gas Flat Flame as late as 1900.  However by 1903 the records show that conversions were to Incandescent Gas.  The last conversion to Incandescent Gas was as late as 1923 despite there being no letup in conversions during the war.

[wagonman]

As far as I know all the V5s were built with gas lighting though I'm not sure if it was still one-pipe or had moved to two-pipe by then. Probably not high priority for upgrading if the former.

[Miss Prism]

10 minutes ago, wagonman said:

Probably not high priority for upgrading if the former.

 

I agree. I've never seen a pic of a 4-wheel PBV with double-pipe.

 

[Western Star]

6 hours ago, wagonman said:

As far as I know all the V5s were built with gas lighting though I'm not sure if it was still one-pipe or had moved to two-pipe by then.

 

6 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 I've never seen a pic of a 4-wheel PBV with double-pipe.

 

I have been discussing the lighting arrangements for V5 with John Lewis (HMRS steward for GWR carriage stock) and he has provided the following information:-

 

<<quote>>All the V5s had gas FF lighting by 1900.  Some got incandescent gas lighting by end 1912:

1404                  Apr 1912

1409                  Dec 1912

1410                  Jul 1910

1414                  Apr 1912

1415                  May 1912

1418                  Nov 1912

7                        Mar 1912

16                      Mar 1912.

<<end quote>>

 

Note that John is aware of my modelling interest being 1900 to 1912 and hence there may be other conversions to incandescent mantles after 1912.

 

regards, Graham