Hornby Dean Single

[GWR-fan]

Received in the last few days was a non-runner Dean Single "Great Western" supplied in the 150 year train pack.  The pack was complete but the price very much reduced due the loco having a short circuit as detailed in the listing from a well known store.  The pack was in mint condition.  On arrival I immediately disassembled the body from the chassis and found a miniature 8-pin decoder fitted.  I have not tested the decoder to see if functional.  The chip was removed and a blanking plate fitted.  The loco was then run on analogue and ran perfectly in reverse but would stop/go in the forward direction.  I assumed that the drive gear was possibly cracked but inspection showed it intact.  I then looked for binding in the gear teeth and did clean up some moulded flash on the teeth but on reassembly the issue still remained.  I did work on the main drive gear several times but could not improve the forward motion.'

 

Then I realised that the loco was stumbling over track joins on my set track test circuit.  It would momentarily bind at each join.  Wheel back to backs were checked withing limits.  The culprit it seems is the power pickups on the leading bogie.  They hang so low that they catch somewhere on the inside of the track join.  I realise that the factory bogie wheel diameter is less than ideal and looked to my spares box for replacements.   Other than sourcing Alan Gibson wheels I opted for the trailing bogie flanged wheelset supplied with each new Hornby A1, A3 and A4 locomotive.  These have ten spokes as per the smaller wheels supplied with the Dean single and while not the full prototypical diameter of 4' 1.5",  the wheels scale out around 3' 8.5" and are about as large as you could go without modifying the swing arm on the bogie and limited clearance under the pilot deck.  The power pickups required minor fettling to run on the inside rim of the larger diameter wheel.

 

After fitting the larger wheels the loco ran smoothly over the track joins with no stumbling evident.  I will now fit larger wheels to my DCC ready "Lord of the Isles"  (also purchased at a discounted rate due the windows in the coaches being "loose".  Actually,  on all these coaches from the factory the windows are merely bent clear plastic loosely fitted inside the coach so in reality there was no issue).

 

Edit:  even though I did adjust the power pickups for the factory supplied smaller wheels I found that power pickup was less than ideal and the loco would need the occasional push start.  After fitting the larger leading wheels power pickup has shown to be very reliable.

Edited May 3, 2019 by GWR-fan
Additional info

[The Johnster]

An object lesson in fault finding and eliminating causes, and deductive reasoning.  Congratulations on your bargain!

[GWR-fan]

Many thanks.  To date I have purchased more than fifty non-runners from a well known store's pre-owned section and to date have not failed in getting them all running.  Some have minor issues, one requiring a new motor and some simply no issue at all.  Some have to my surprise come with both sound and non-sound decoders even though the item description made no mention of decoders being fitted.  This has been a relatively inexpensive way to get some nice locomotives at a much reduced price to either retain for myself or onsell.

[JohnR]

I've often been tempted to buy some of their non-runners, but the thought of being left with an expensive lump has put me off. Reading your post has made me think it might not be so clear cut. 

[GWR-fan]

John,

           while one is taking a risk in purchasing a non-runner there is also the joy of finding a simple fault that prevents what would have been an expensive model from running and at a much reduced price.  In one case on an almost new Hornby class 86 Freightliner the fault was that the overhead catenary switch was selected to the pantograph and obviously would not run on track power.  Many that did not run had decoders fitted.  Once the decoder was removed the loco ran perfectly. Also many described as non-runners actually ran without any corrective action being needed,  although in some cases the operation was a little hesitant at first but the model soon ran well.  Cost wise I am miles in front with spending some time fixing my supposed non-runners and I see each purchase as a challenge to my ability. 

 

I am not saying that every loco described as a non-runner will be made to successfully run but in my experience I am way in front.  Also I believe that to date I have received six locomotives described as non-runners that had expensive sound decoders installed.  There was no mention of the models having decoders in the store's description and all six were made functional with sound with almost no corrective action.  One model was a late release Hornby Castle class with an ESU sound decoder that ran perfectly with no action needed even though described as a non-runner.  This week I received a DCC ready Bachmann "Kinlet Hall" that was described as a non-runner and was listed at GBP30.00 on the pre-owned site with no mention of a decoder being fitted.   I noted that there were wires between the loco and tender indicating that a decoder may have been installed by the previous owner.  The decoder it turned out was a sound decoder and the fault was one wire broken between the loco and tender and relatively easy to fix although a little fiddly.

 

I see every purchase as a challenge and expect the loco to actually be a non-runner.  One cannot be guaranteed that his non-runner can be made functional but with my experience I do not hesitate should the model look to be well priced and worth the risk.

[No Decorum]

Some decoders can be switched so that the loco will not run on DC. A simple re-programme could turn what appears to be a non-runner into a runner.

 

Very good work, GWR-fan!

[GWR-fan]

This morning I fitted the Hornby A3/A4 flanged accessory wheelset to the lead bogie on my R2560 "Lord of the Isles".   Alas,  as the loco does not have traction tyres then I have to favour traction over the leading wheel on the bogie skating (not rotating).  I adjusted the swing arm numerous times but could not reach a spot where traction was not compromised.  To get enough pressure on the lead bogie wheelset to allow it to rotate then the loco barely could move itself.  A replacement main driving wheelset with tyres would help but then there is always the issue of the tyres.  I even experimented with a stock wheelset on the rear of the bogie and the larger wheelset from the A3/A4 on the lead axle but while it did allow both traction and the lead wheelset rotating it is not an acceptable alternative.

 

Against my better judgement I decided to persist with fitting the larger diameter bogie wheels.  This is where I found several issues with the "Lord of Isles" chassis not seen on the "Great Western" chassis.  The LOI does not have traction tyres nor does it have the spring to preload the leading bogie swing arm.  Also I believe that the deck height on the later model has been modified allowing more vertical movement of the bogie when the preload spring was added.

 

I Dremeled down the deck height that the bogie swing arm attaches to as I found that the rear wheel on the bogie was also causing my loss of traction.  I then lightly adjusted the swing arm shape to allow traction plus both bogie axles rotating.  Now comes the odd part.  When refitting the body I noted that it was a tight fit as regards aligning the rear mount body screw.  I rearranged the wires atop the chassis however, the body was still a tight fit and required pressing down toalign and fit the body screw.  The result was a very noisy loco with somewhat erratic running.  With the body removed the drive is whisper quiet pulling the tender and the three stock clerestory shorty coaches.  Refit the body and the noise and rough running return.  If I leave the body on but just remove the body mount screw then the drive quietens down considerably and the motion is smoother.   There is nothing really when fitting the body to interfere with the drive chassis as it is enclosed so I am wondering if screwing down the body is somehow distorting the chassis.  Most of the excessive noise I believe is the body amplifying the wheelspin still evident when running.  One wonders why Hornby chose not to fit traction tyres to this loco with its single drive wheel.

 

No doubt I will spend a few more hours trying to solve this problem.  The loco does look better with the larger diameter bogie wheels but I really did not need all this added drama.  The "Great Western" Dean single was relatively simple to fit the larger wheels,  however, the "Lord of the Isles" is really tempting my patience.  I think that I will find a slightly longer mount screw to allow the body to be fitted but still remain a little loose.  Eventually I may purchase a new drive wheelset with traction tyres as the loco really does seem very light footed.

[GWR-fan]

A follow up to the above posting.  I did not mention in the previous posting that I added a modified wheelweight to the leading bogie to apply a downforce to assist rotation.  The larger wheels do obscure its presence.   I traced most of my noise, particularly in the reverse direction,  to a noisy aft bearing on the motor.  The noise was a high pitched scream much like one occasionally hears on a ringfield motor when there is no lube on the plastic case adjacent the armature.  I lubed the bearing and the loco settled down.  It runs smoother but still has a slippage sound which the body amplifies.  Traction tyres will solve both the slippage and the noise as my "Great Western" Dean single is now almost silent and runs very well, even with the tyres.

Edited May 6, 2019 by GWR-fan
Additional info

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

the loco really does seem very light footed.

The "original" Triang LOTI was designed with Magnadhesion in mind, which doesn't really work on non-steel track. I've got Lorna Doone, which was a fairly recent version, DCC ready and  complete with a Certificate of Authenticity "signed" by SK himself! (A very inexpensive eBay purchase) She can cope with about six Triang clerestorys, which I would say is fairly reasonable for a single. 

[GWR-fan]

The DCC ready LOTI does not have traction tyres and three shorty coaches is about its limit through R3/R4 curves.  The "Great Western" has tyres and would easily haul six clerestories.

[Compound2632]

The old Triang version of this model relied on "magnehesion" to keep its feet; on nickel-silver rail, because it was nose-heavy one had to ballast the tender and make sure it was sitting down on the drawhook to keep the engine's rear wheels on the track and enable it to pull anything. How is the modern version in this respect?

Edited May 6, 2019 by Compound2632

[GWR-fan]

If the loco has traction tyres then it is good for around five or six coaches.  If not then traction is down to around three cars assuming large set track curves.  The loco is balanced on the rear two axles.

Edited May 6, 2019 by GWR-fan
Additional info

[drt7uk]

On 06/05/2019 at 05:44, GWR-fan said:

A follow up to the above posting.  I did not mention in the previous posting that I added a modified wheelweight to the leading bogie to apply a downforce to assist rotation.  The larger wheels do obscure its presence.   I traced most of my noise, particularly in the reverse direction,  to a noisy aft bearing on the motor.  The noise was a high pitched scream much like one occasionally hears on a ringfield motor when there is no lube on the plastic case adjacent the armature.  I lubed the bearing and the loco settled down.  It runs smoother but still has a slippage sound which the body amplifies.  Traction tyres will solve both the slippage and the noise as my "Great Western" Dean single is now almost silent and runs very well, even with the tyres.

Hello! 

 

Just wondered how you got on re traction tyres / a new wheelset?

 

I've experimented with bullfrog snot but removed (stupidly) to improve running (using the main wheel again as a source of pick up).

 

Going to try adding weights and seeing if it helps. If not I might add a small amount of bullfrog snot again as that did at least allow it to haul 4 carriages.  Ugh!

[GWR-fan]

Sorry,  I put it on the "to do list" and never got around to it.