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rue_d_etropal

Freelance OO carriage design to download

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It is not reckless the way I design my models. I initially did get prints done, and worked out through experience what works and what does not work. I also found that sometimes there were variations in way the same print would come out, and wasted a lot of time trying to adjust to this. I am not trying to create perfect models but ones which get more people actually building complete models without having to resort to complex kits or scratchbuilding.

If I find an error in one of my designs I will fix it. I find far mor errors in drawings done by experts , and will make adjustments to compensate if possible.

It seems there are some who would rather live in a world with limited models , all in their view perfect,but I can guarantee there will still be some very big compromises, or a world with lots of choice and variety, but possibly more compromises. 

I suggest anyone who wants to design and produce better(in their view) 3D printed models actually get off their backsides , and do it themselves. Producing a very small number of models for their own use is relatively easy, but giving everyone else a chance to enjoy those models  is far more difficult.

Another issue which many see to ignore is that to be able to do business on an interanational scale you have to jump through a lot of hoops, and many take a chance and ignore those at their peril. By using Shapeways I don't have to jump through those hoops, and I don't hae to worry about any potential problems, such as items getting broken in post, items going missing(asssuming they actually do go missing), or any other liability that might exist. I suspect that even those just doing business in the UK, take a chance on certain things.

There is an interesting development in 3D printing, I missed it at York, but in latest copy of RM(assuming those here actually read it) there is an announcement that Rails are producing some 3D printed wagons. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

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2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

 giving everyone else a chance to enjoy those models  is far more difficult.

 

No, it's easy. You just upload your models to Thingiverse/sharing site if you just want people to enjoy them. But....

 

2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Another issue which many see to ignore is that to be able to do business on an interanational scale you have to jump through a lot of hoops, and many take a chance and ignore those at their peril. By using Shapeways I don't have to jump through those hoops, and I don't hae to worry about any potential problems, such as items getting broken in post, items going missing(asssuming they actually do go missing), or any other liability that might exist. I suspect that even those just doing business in the UK, take a chance on certain things.

 

You are by definition a business and you sub contract the making of your product to Shapeways. Part of the problem that I see is that you devolve yourself of any responsibility of the finished product even though a faulty print may be by reason of its design as it is untested. You actually confirmed this in your opening paragraph.

 

2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I initially did get prints done, and worked out through experience what works and what does not work. I also found that sometimes there were variations in way the same print would come out, and wasted a lot of time trying to adjust to this

 

You also don't state on your Shapeways listings that an item that someone is interested in may not be accurate, is untested and has not been given any thought as to how or where an underframe is to be sourced or made. 

 

If you really want to help modellers try thinking about how someone is supposed to actually take the print further. I know of 2 who have your prints and both have done nothing with them as no thought was given at the design stage of how to get them running.  They also struggled to find adhesives that would work due to them being printed in the cheapest product (but at a high price)  

 

As for not knowing you could reverse an .stl file. That is a lesson you shouldn't have needed to be learn :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

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I've had no problems gluing what I ssume you mean used to be called WSF, and others have told me that they also have had no problem at all. The fact that some have problems , some don't,suggests to me that it is not the material but the user. I have tried to get discussion on this, but many seem to just repeat what others say. I also think that some seem to expect to be told exactly how to do something, rather than trying out to see what suits them. Maybe that is part of the 'kit' culture which is now evolving into a r2r culture. I said it efoe, I don't produce kits, but something to get people started. A complete novice mightnot know kow t go about building a modelfrom scatch, but I would expect someone with some model building experience to be able to. Compared to some kits I have come across it is a lot easier.

For every negative comment I come across I get far far more positive comments and feedback.

When I tried a couple of years ago to get 3D print designers to form a group and work together, to promote 3D printing in the hobby, I was deafened by the silence!

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2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

The fact that some have problems , some don't,suggests to me that it is not the material but the user.

So it's the users fault....wrong..it's just the wrong material point blank.  The WSF varies depending on how it prints, adhesive does not.  It's come up time and again that WSF (as it used to be called) is just not suitable.  If you're sure it is the users fault what adhesive do you think actually works on it ? as you do not recommend any that are suitable.

 

2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I also think that some seem to expect to be told exactly how to do something, rather than trying out to see what suits them. Maybe that is part of the 'kit' culture which is now evolving into a r2r culture.

 

You keep saying the 'Kit Culture' is dead and they're all buying RTR but then say that someone with the ability to put together a kit is going to choose a very expensive 3D print in the wrong material.  If they are from the 'Kit Culture' as you suggest, then they wouldn't need or expect to be told what to do, but would have the experience to do something. 

 

Give some thought to what a purchaser is meant to do with the prints if they purchase them, the mark of a good business is seeing the end product actually being used. You're lucky here that as a business you don't pay for the free advertising that you receive and you're able to reach a large audience,  that audience may think that these are easy to build as you say you've done the bulk of the work, when in reality it's the underframe with good running that is the really important bit.  Instead of banging out 5 bodies a day why not do an underframe and bogies. 

 

2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

When I tried a couple of years ago to get 3D print designers to form a group and work together, to promote 3D printing in the hobby, I was deafened by the silence!

 

I remember....Have you ever thought that there might be a reason for this ? Quality of design & testing of product might have something to do with it. There are quite a few who work together already, but they have an open mind as to how this part of the hobby can progress and are learning all the time.

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sounds like an elistist group who don't want to share. I actually talk to a lot of people in the real world, not just online, and I have not come across anyone dealing with a goup of 3D print designers. Odd that. I've done a few exhibitions, trade and exhibitor and unless someone is trying to keep it a secret group, then I Am surprsed no-one has mentioned them. People I talk to seem to be pretty positive and supportve of what I do. I only get negativity from some on this forum, although I also h-get a lot of positive comments.

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3 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

sounds like an elistist group who don't want to share. 

 

You couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Sometimes for some, sharing is a one way thing.  I'd suggest that your experience of uploading a design which was then taken apart to suit the downloaders printer which you had no idea could be done, followed by your statement that you would not be doing this again because you'd learnt what you wanted. This shows that you do not really want to share experiences with other modellers but to gain in some way.

 

Still no news on the Adhesive ? 

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I draw for my printer, i know its tolarances, failure points, etc..  i think with right design, drawing, and printer, you can get a very reasonable result. But some many people come to me with big miss understanding of 3d printers, mainly not wanting to wait 24hrs + for it to fininsh (if you know this you plan for it and dont do 24hr test prints etc.. ) and the other one is i work in a achitectual company and people think they can scale down a 1:1 building and go print.. and don't like it when i say nope you need to redraw it for the printer.. (what works in water colours wont allwasy work in oils) its a different medium..

 

and i also like you lot see loads of badly drawn (usually incorrect proportios, or just not quite right) 3d models.. but i aslo see some WOW thats well drawn, CAD is a skill thats why we get paid .. :) 

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If I download a 3D file, whatever the format, free or paid for, I'll open it in my preferred program and check it out thoroughly and in some cases modify it to suit the application. Over the years I've encountered little errors in other's drawings that needed correcting so that the final render (for large format printing as exhibition graphics) looks good. It makes sense to me that if you're going to commit a file to many hours printing time on your own (or a bureaux) 3D printer then checking the file and arranging elements to suit a better print arrangement is sensible.

There are loads of free 3D files available online for personal use, all given generously by individuals that enjoy the creation of the original model. Using someones drawing and modifying it was a good way for me to get to learn Blender in the way I needed to use it. Other than asking that a download is not sold on, there's nothing else you can object to.

Thingiverse has been very useful for improvements to my own 3D printer, all generously given by other users. Some modify the downloads and credit the originator when re-posting (again for free) so that we may all benefit from the shared experience.

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True that. I’ve put some stuff up both on Thingiverse and Shapeways in the past. Thingiverse for people that have access to a printer, and Shapeways for those that don’t. I put a bit of margin on the Shapeways one that basically pays for a coffee.

 

i also use Blender. :) it’s great for what I need, and is perfect for my budget.

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Bit of a thread resurrection here, but I must admit I side with ChrisDave. Of course STLs can be modified, I can’t believe that someone running a business producing CAD files thought they were read only. 

 

I’m another one who bought a number of Shapeways products in WSF and FUD, but haven’t bought anything for a while due to the cost. I’ve now recently bought my own printer, and I’m getting reasonable results, IMO better than either material at a fraction of the price. I’m fortunate to model in N so I can print bodies in one go. That remains a big advantage of Shapeways - the ability to print larger body shells in one go. 

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Ability to modify stl files was not in doubt, just not being talked about. By mentioning it it has brought it out into the open, not just the few involved in printing their own models.

As for free downloads, this was an experiment to see what would happen, and the results are interesting. I assume anyone actually printing themselves would be happy to give away the models they have printed.

I doubt that many model railway designs for 3D printing will be made available for download, certainly not for free. If someone wants that then they should create their own, it takes time and money. This is also  one reason scale drawings have to be bought, as someone had to create those, and they don't want to give them away.

 

I also suspect that there will always be a limit to size of model that can be printed at home. Even Shapeways FUD is limited, and their WSF only goes up to what would be a standard gauge 1 coach(about 65cm long). I believe it is not the size to be printed that is the problem, but the ability to remove it from printer that is the problem, as the printed material is still flexible .

 

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40 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Ability to modify stl files was not in doubt, just not being talked about. By mentioning it it has brought it out into the open, not just the few involved in printing their own models.

As for free downloads, this was an experiment to see what would happen, and the results are interesting. I assume anyone actually printing themselves would be happy to give away the models they have printed.

I doubt that many model railway designs for 3D printing will be made available for download, certainly not for free. If someone wants that then they should create their own, it takes time and money. This is also  one reason scale drawings have to be bought, as someone had to create those, and they don't want to give them away.

 

Err, you've said 5 times that you didn't know it was possible (although that's morphed into a secret society "we all knew about it but no one said" rubbish).

 

On 09/05/2019 at 11:14, rue_d_etropal said:

To be fair, I had not realised it was possible to split up stl files, another reason I will stick with Shapeways.

 

On 09/05/2019 at 12:07, rue_d_etropal said:

One fact that has emerged which I did not realise was ability to split up stl files.

 

On 09/05/2019 at 14:00, rue_d_etropal said:

Odd that noone has mentioned it was in effect possible to recerse engineer a 3D print stl file, so I have learnt something

 

On 10/05/2019 at 11:19, rue_d_etropal said:

Being able to break up stl files is news to me.

 

On 11/05/2019 at 11:15, rue_d_etropal said:

It has brought out into the open that it is possible to modify stl files,

 

As for my designs, no I wouldn't give them away, nor would I make them available on Thingiverse, why would I? I don't understand the point you're making. I would sell things for a reasonable price (ie covering my materials and the time that has gone into the design, as you identify) if people were interested. I'm designing for myself though, so anything I sell will have gone through many iterations and dozens of test prints and be principally for my own enjoyment as a finished product. Which is obviously very different to your MO.

 

I'm appreciative of people making things available FOC, but I'm not going to emulate that. If people want to sell their prints at full market value and extract maximum profit that's entirely their prerogative. If people want to give them away (either by sharing STLs or literally handing out prints) that's also their prerogative.

 

Your entire argument seems a bit confused, I don't even know what you have issues with.

 

Edited by njee20
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7 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I also suspect that there will always be a limit to size of model that can be printed at home. 

If you get away from the concept of a single print item, horizons open up wonderfully - https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:259005 - and its free. 

 

7 hours ago, njee20 said:

As for my designs, no I wouldn't give them away, nor would I make them available on Thingiverse, why would I? I don't understand the point you're making. I would sell things for a reasonable price (ie covering my materials and the time that has gone into the design, as you identify) if people were interested. I'm designing for myself though, so anything I sell will have gone through many iterations and dozens of test prints and be principally for my own enjoyment as a finished product. Which is obviously very different to your MO.

 

I'm appreciative of people making things available FOC, but I'm not going to emulate that. If people want to sell their prints at full market value and extract maximum profit that's entirely their prerogative. If people want to give them away (either by sharing STLs or literally handing out prints) that's also their prerogative.

I completely agree with this view but I think it highlights the uncomfortable boundary between the hobby and the commercial world where new technologies may be contributing to some blurring.

 

I do design and make for myself as I am fortunate enough to have some 3d design skills and a printer - other friends and modelling colleagues do not and in a spirit of support and collaboration - yes I am happy to print "stuff" for them. 

 

I am equally grateful for their input to my projects in other ways with their skills and knowledge as well as time and effort given helping me at exhibitions.

 

On the rough estimate of 18p / metre for filament and 8p per hour running cost, I am hardly going to charge them for something modest - I don't have the mindset that the restaurant bill has to be broken out to what each person had. For me, part of the hobby is sharing and collaboration and that's where the conflict with the commercial world lies - where the new skills and technologies overlap, particularly 3d printing, laser cutting CAD and CNC, realistically all driven by the digital age.

 

Previously, no hobbyist would produce injection mouldings or die casting but current technology has given the hobbyist and commercial producers alike access to the same platforms and we are going to have to learn a new set of accommodations.

 

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