'Tuning Fork' layouts - operational potential

[south_tyne]

7 hours ago, sb67 said:

I've never built an inglenook although I do fancy trying it out. I've got a sector plate on my current layout and it does make operation enjoyable although if I don't use the crossover I could always operate it as an inglenook I guess. It measures 5ft 3 x 15 inches and the fiddle yard is 24 inches. I added a kick back to make things a bit more interesting.

 

Steve.

 

Thanks Steve - sounds very interesting. I'll have a peruse of your layout thread!

[jcm@gwr]

I've built an 0 gauge Inglenook in 6' 6" x 16" (I could have 

shortened it to just 6') by using a 3-way point (Marcway)

I use Lima/Big Big 16t opens and nothing bigger than an

0-6-0 to shunt it, so you can use 0 in a small space.

[south_tyne]

1 hour ago, jcm@gwr said:

I've built an 0 gauge Inglenook in 6' 6" x 16" (I could have 

shortened it to just 6') by using a 3-way point (Marcway)

I use Lima/Big Big 16t opens and nothing bigger than an

0-6-0 to shunt it, so you can use 0 in a small space.

 

Cheers that's really interesting and very useful. If you don't mind me asking, just out of interest, how long is the Marcway three-way point?

 

[Wayne 37901]

Hi @south_tyne,

 

As @marc smith said I am now the owner of Dave Tailby's Trevanna Dries. It's a lovely little layout and I took it on as a move into EM gauge.

 

I've taken it to a few local shows but Dave has taken it up and down the country as all the show badges came with it. I'd really like to do more shows with it but I need to find a way to put my own 'stamp' on it.

 

If you have any questions feel free to ask.

 

Cheers,

Edited June 14, 2019 by Wayne 37901

[south_tyne]

53 minutes ago, Wayne 37901 said:

Hi @south_tyne,

 

As @marc smith said I am now the owner of Dave Tailby's Trevanna Dries. It's a lovely little layout and I took it on as a move into EM gauge.

 

I've taken it to a few local shows but Dave has taken it up and down the country as all the show badges came with it. I'd really like to do more shows with it but I need to find a way to put my own 'stamp' on it.

 

If you have any questions feel free to ask.

 

Cheers,

 

Hi Wayne,

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to me. It'll be great to see some photos if you do get a chance but no problem if that's not possible. What are the dimensions of the layout? I know you are working in 4mm scale but it will be useful to find a comparison to scale up. Also, from the couple of images I have found online, it looks as though there are fiddle yards at both ends - are they both sector plates? 

 

Apologies for asking so many questions and thanks again for replying.

 

Cheers,

David 

 

[Talltim]

One way of adding extra potential to a classic one-point tuning fork is for one of the sidings to continue through to another fiddle yard.

Thats the basis for this layout that I may one day get round to building a variant of

 

Although both sidings have wagon spots, any wagons parked in the Perlite Hopper track have to be moved to get to the 'other industries'. Based entirely on real life https://www.google.com/maps/@42.685689,-71.1778062,139m/data=!3m1!1e3

[alant]

On 11/06/2019 at 23:35, south_tyne said:

 

 

Hi Marc, 

 

Many thanks for taking the time to reply to me. There's some great suggestions there and plenty to mull over. 

 

I am really keen of your idea of adding a loading/unloading aspect to the layout for added operational and visual interest. I'm thinking of basing the design around a small engineering works or factory, which will give a chance to use a variety of vans and open wagons and of course incoming goods such as coal. I could definitely utilise that idea for the open wagons and coal. 

 

The wagon turntable is another fantastic suggestion and something to think about. I'm sure it will be easier to do in 7mm scale too, where the added bulk and mass should work well. I'll have a look to see if anyone produced one in 0 gauge. 

 

The sector-plate/traverser idea is something I have been considering. I always admired your first 7mm layout which utilised the one point but could be operated as an inglenook. Obviously I was a huge fan of Poynton Sneer too! Both of these have proved inspirational and have been shaping my thinking over design. I have always wanted to try a 'pointless' layout one day, that would very much hell in saving space - whether it is two sidings or three fed from a traverser would need to be weighed up but it does appeal to me. I have also been considering the use of your clever 'mirror trick' too.....

 

Thanks again for sharing, it's great to have your input and I really appreciate you taking the time to help me 

 

Just found this link on another 7mm thread here for a wagon turntable:

 

http://www.kitwoodhillmodels.com/o-scale-wagon-turntable/

 

 

[jcm@gwr]

11 hours ago, south_tyne said:

 

Cheers that's really interesting and very useful. If you don't mind me asking, just out of interest, how long is the Marcway three-way point?

 

 

The Marcway three-way point (which I built from their kit) is 22:5" (570mm),*

but it could be trimmed a bit if needed, how much is  down to how brave 

determined/skilled you are.

* shorter than 2 normal points end-to-end

[south_tyne]

13 hours ago, Talltim said:

One way of adding extra potential to a classic one-point tuning fork is for one of the sidings to continue through to another fiddle yard.

Thats the basis for this layout that I may one day get round to building a variant of

 

Although both sidings have wagon spots, any wagons parked in the Perlite Hopper track have to be moved to get to the 'other industries'. Based entirely on real life https://www.google.com/maps/@42.685689,-71.1778062,139m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

Thanks, that's a good idea and a nice little plan. Similar in concept to what I have seen referred to as a 'protonook' whereby one of the spurs in the inglenook is actually a through line. This was actually the basis of Alan Wright's originally scheme, based on the prototype of Kilham Sidings on the NER line from Alnwick to Coldstream. 

 

12 hours ago, alant said:

 

Just found this link on another 7mm thread here for a wagon turntable:

 

http://www.kitwoodhillmodels.com/o-scale-wagon-turntable/

 

 

 

Cheers Alan!!

 

3 hours ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

The Marcway three-way point (which I built from their kit) is 22:5" (570mm),*

but it could be trimmed a bit if needed, how much is  down to how brave 

determined/skilled you are.

* shorter than 2 normal points end-to-end

 

Thanks that's really helpful. It certainly would be a space-saving option and allow the inglenook to be trimmed. Sorry to ask a supplementary question, but have you got any photographs handy of your layout? I would be interested to see what you have done. No problem if not though. 

 

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed so far!

 

David

[jcm@gwr]

1 hour ago, south_tyne said:

 

Thanks that's really helpful. It certainly would be a space-saving option and allow the inglenook to be trimmed. Sorry to ask a supplementary question, but have you got any photographs handy of your layout? I would be interested to see what you have done. No problem if not though. 

 

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed so far!

 

David

 

Despite the fact that it's been on the (local) exhibition circuit for a few years,

I don't have any photos of my Inglenook, HAVATRY.

But, it's possible there might be some on our club's Facebook page (try the

link on our website, www.sandmodelrailway.org.uk  )

Edited June 15, 2019 by jcm@gwr
tidying up

[Neil]

Shell Island is a tuning fork with a short kick back road from one of the legs.

 

 

The kick back siding was rarely used as only a small 4W shunter and a single wagon would fit in the headshunt. Operational interest came from using the sidings as exchange sidings; a BR loco would trip wagons into the sidings which were then removed by an industrial shunter. Some time later it would return with outbound traffic which the BR loco would remove. I found that simple things like removable coal loads added to the operating experience, fulls in, empties out.

 

 

Hopefully you'll have spotted from the plan that the scenic portion was only two and a half feet long, the maximum train length could only be a class 24, three swb wagons and a brake van. The layout was fed by a three road sector plate sized to accommodate this length of train.

 

 

[south_tyne]

7 hours ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

Despite the fact that it's been on the (local) exhibition circuit for a few years,

I don't have any photos of my Inglenook, HAVATRY.

But, it's possible there might be some on our club's Facebook page (try the

link on our website, www.sandmodelrailway.org.uk  )

 

Champion... I'll have a trawl through and see if I can find something 

[south_tyne]

1 hour ago, Neil said:

Shell Island is a tuning fork with a short kick back road from one of the legs.

 

 

The kick back siding was rarely used as only a small 4W shunter and a single wagon would fit in the headshunt. Operational interest came from using the sidings as exchange sidings; a BR loco would trip wagons into the sidings which were then removed by an industrial shunter. Some time later it would return with outbound traffic which the BR loco would remove. I found that simple things like removable coal loads added to the operating experience, fulls in, empties out.

 

 

Hopefully you'll have spotted from the plan that the scenic portion was only two and a half feet long, the maximum train length could only be a class 24, three swb wagons and a brake van. The layout was fed by a three road sector plate sized to accommodate this length of train.

 

 

 

Hi Neil,

 

Thank you very much for your contribution and for reminding me a Shell Island. It's a wonderful little layout, definitely a classic of the genre. 

 

The explanation regarding the operation is very interesting. I too have been considering a scheme whereby an exchange sidings are depicted, where wagons or transferred by an industrial loco to BR metals (and vice-versa). That should really add to operational interest.

 

Your thoughts around removable loads for wagons is also something I am keen to take on board. That kind of thing, potentially with wagons being loaded/unloaded in situ, as suggested by Mr Smith depending on the nature of the traffic depicted, is something I am keen to explore. 

 

Based on your dimensions, scaling up Shell Island to 7mm scale may mean a scenic portion of around 150 to 180cm. That is likely to be too unwieldy in one section, so the critical thing would be to find a way of incorporating a baseboard joint around the two turnouts. Definitely food for thought......

 

Thanks again for your input, it is much appreciated. 

 

David

 

[mullie]

Hadn't realised I had ripped off Shell Island!

 

Here is my East Anglian Upbech St Mary, the whole layout can be seen in this photo: 

 

 

The kickback is used to release the loco of an incoming train that then goes into the kick back siding for watering. Operation is mainly by Silver Fox J70s built long before the Rapido model was available, an Ipswich J72 running on Comet frames and a Gibson wheeled J15. The layout is my first venture into EM gauge. The J15 propels two wagons and brake van,  in the style of the Snape branch so doesn't need releasing. Trains either go back to the junction at Pott Row or out onto the fens in the style of the Wissington railway. The trams handle the fenland trains, the J72 and J15 goods trains from the junction. Wagons are brought to the station by the trams and then sent back to the junction and vice versa so making for interesting shunting and a reason for the line's existence.

 

An arty photo!

 

 

Martyn

[south_tyne]

8 hours ago, mullie said:

Hadn't realised I had ripped off Shell Island!

 

Here is my East Anglian Upbech St Mary, the whole layout can be seen in this photo: 

 

 

The kickback is used to release the loco of an incoming train that then goes into the kick back siding for watering. Operation is mainly by Silver Fox J70s built long before the Rapido model was available, an Ipswich J72 running on Comet frames and a Gibson wheeled J15. The layout is my first venture into EM gauge. The J15 propels two wagons and brake van,  in the style of the Snape branch so doesn't need releasing. Trains either go back to the junction at Pott Row or out onto the fens in the style of the Wissington railway. The trams handle the fenland trains, the J72 and J15 goods trains from the junction. Wagons are brought to the station by the trams and then sent back to the junction and vice versa so making for interesting shunting and a reason for the line's existence.

 

An arty photo!

 

 

Martyn

 

That's wonderful Martyn! Great minds obviously think alike. Upbeach St Mary obviously combines some of my favourite things... J70 trams, a J72 and East Anglia  I used to live a couple of miles from the Shape branch, so I have always been interested in the prototype. 

 

Funny that you mention Wissington, as that is what my proposed layout is going to be based on. I have a Hudswell Clark loco as per the prototype and am developing an idea for a similar tramway handling sugar beet, fertiliser, other agricultural produce etc. It would be based in West Suffolk, around the Mildenhall area. Well that's the plan in any case. Just need to pull my finger out and get on with it!

 

Actually I saw 'Wissington' last year when it was up here at Beamish. It's a lovely loco and even got a ride on the footplate 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

To save a bit of space, but also to put restrictions on the stock you can use, (which can be a good thing), in order to fit my EM train set into hold baggage for the airplane I used 1 in 4 turnouts. Maybe coming down a size or two could buy you a little bit of wiggle room?

 

Mike.

[south_tyne]

18 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

To save a bit of space, but also to put restrictions on the stock you can use, (which can be a good thing), in order to fit my EM train set into hold baggage for the airplane I used 1 in 4 turnouts. Maybe coming down a size or two could buy you a little bit of wiggle room?

 

Mike.

 

Mike, 

 

That's a good point. Pardon my stupidity, but what do you mean by "1 in 4 turnouts"? 

 

David

[south_tyne]

On 15/06/2019 at 18:52, south_tyne said:

...and even got a ride on the footplate...

 

The view from the hot seat.... thankfully for all concerned I wasn't let loose at the controls!! 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

5 hours ago, south_tyne said:

 

Mike, 

 

That's a good point. Pardon my stupidity, but what do you mean by "1 in 4 turnouts"? 

 

David

 

Ain't no stupidity IMHO, just terminology, apologies for clouding the water.

 

 

The 1 in * refers to the angle of the turnout, always expressed as a ratio as in the illustration above.

The lower the second number the sharper the angle of the diverging road, hence my suggestion to go for a tighter angle to take that road "away" from the straight road sooner and give a little more wiggle room.

 

Mike.

[1722]

Interesting thread. I'm considering a micro fork myself so has been good to see thoughts and musings from all concerned. 

 

And ALWAYS good to see Shell Island appear, particularly when accompanied by operation notes! 

[south_tyne]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Ain't no stupidity IMHO, just terminology, apologies for clouding the water.

 

 

The 1 in * refers to the angle of the turnout, always expressed as a ratio as in the illustration above.

The lower the second number the sharper the angle of the diverging road, hence my suggestion to go for a tighter angle to take that road "away" from the straight road sooner and give a little more wiggle room.

 

Mike.

 

Mike,

 

Thank you very much for your explanation and no need to apologise at all. It is always good to learn something new!

 

I have been considering having a go at building my own points, just as I am wanting some smaller, tighter ones (potentially 36" radius) to suit an industrial setting, so it is definitely something to consider. 

 

Cheers!

[south_tyne]

2 hours ago, 1722 said:

Interesting thread. I'm considering a micro fork myself so has been good to see thoughts and musings from all concerned. 

 

And ALWAYS good to see Shell Island appear, particularly when accompanied by operation notes! 

 

Definitely. Both Shell Island and Upbeach St Mary are cracking layouts and shows the plan can be used in very different settings. It is funny how modellers can come up with very similar schemes, totally independently on one another... great minds obviously! The added kick back obviously adds to operating potential and I think is something I would like to incorporate if I do go down this route. Adding a third siding - ala Smithfield St Yard which I posted above - would add even more to the scheme,  but obviously will require more space. An effective traverser is clearly crucial to the layout working well. 

[awoodford]

 Here are a couple of links that might give you some operational ideas. Although they are American they could be adapted for British operation. The first is a prototype example showing just how complicated shunting a simple track arrangement can be...

 

http://oscalewcor.blogspot.com/2010/09/stretching-simple-spur.html

 

The other is a layout build by Conrail Joe in the US subforum here. Note the use of 'props' (point and de-rail locks in this case) for slowing down the operations...

 

Alan.

 

[south_tyne]

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this and offered their help and advice. It is greatly appreciated. As a result, I've now started on a tiny micro-layout (better described as a diorama to be honest) to give some of the ideas a go, before I start on a 'proper' layout. I might blow my cover and post a few more details in due course......