"Unclassifying" a coach.

[Stormbringer]

Hi all, how would you go about "unclassifying" a coach? For example a Mk2 FO into a lounge car for the Scottish sleepers? Would you just remove the 1 from the doors? Or is there structural work that needs doing?

 

TIA

   Pete

[phil-b259]

13 minutes ago, Stormbringer said:

Hi all, how would you go about "unclassifying" a coach? For example a Mk2 FO into a lounge car for the Scottish sleepers? Would you just remove the 1 from the doors? Or is there structural work that needs doing?

 

TIA

   Pete

 

It rather depends on what you mean by 'unclasifying'

 

Temporary changes can simply be a case of masking out any 'First Class' identification and removing anti-antimacassars etc. However this can cause diagramming problems (i.e. two outwardly identical coaching rakes having different seating capacities*).

 

Longer term changes will usually result in alterations to the interior - fitting additional seats / changing from a 1+2 to a 2+2 layout for example.

 

You need to remember that modifying bodyshells is expensive - and with the advent on Monocoque construction very difficult without compromising structural integrity. The Mk3s were deliberately built with a single bodyshell design for both SO and FO configurations - it was only the internals that were different.

 

With the Mk2s, while the bodyshell designs were different between First and Standard (more seats in the latter so one extra Window), British Rail did undertake a number of First to Standard reconfigurations later on - and this resulted in a 'First class' bodyshell with a Standard class' interior (and more seats next to blank panels rather than a Window).

 

 

* East Midlands Trains have this at the moment because the HST vehicles they took on from grand Central have a lower seating capacity than the ones which have been with EMT throughout

 

 

[AMJ]

In the 1980's we used to look for and like the "For use by passengers with 2nd class tickets" window stickers as that meant an instant free upgrade.

 

Often vehicles permanently downgraded were renumbered so that the above diagramming issues didn't happen.  Best checking the P5 books for relevant details.

[Mark Saunders]

1 hour ago, AMJ said:

In the 1980's we used to look for and like the "For use by passengers with 2nd class tickets" window stickers as that meant an instant free upgrade.

 

Often vehicles permanently downgraded were renumbered so that the above diagramming issues didn't happen.  Best checking the P5 books for relevant details.

 

Or just look in the timetable for services shown second class only!

[45125]

All we did with the first class mk1s and 2s at BG was remove all the first class branding, ie paint out the yellow stripe and one on the doors, them remove the first class stickers on the body lights. Some even had the end details altered Fs changed to S.

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

Or just look in the timetable for services shown second class only!

Not, I think, if you go by the letter of the Conditions of Carriage. A first class carriage doesn't automatically become a second class one just by virtue of being in a second class only service, and technically the offence would be using a second class ticket in first class accommodation. It just depends how zealous a revenue inspector wants to be.

 

Jim 

[Jim Martin]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

Not, I think, if you go by the letter of the Conditions of Carriage. A first class carriage doesn't automatically become a second class one just by virtue of being in a second class only service, and technically the offence would be using a second class ticket in first class accommodation. It just depends how zealous a revenue inspector wants to be.

 

Jim 

Surely a carriage is whatever class the railway company says it is? They could fit out a mark 3 with half a dozen chaises longues and tables with bowls full of fresh fruit, and if they choose to call that a Standard Open, that's what it is.

[beast66606]

5 hours ago, AMJ said:

In the 1980's we used to look for and like the "For use by passengers with 2nd class tickets" window stickers as that meant an instant free upgrade.

 

 

We used to take them off the windows at journeys end (the trains or ours) and have them available for reuse ... (allegedly)

[jim.snowdon]

1 minute ago, Jim Martin said:

Surely a carriage is whatever class the railway company says it is? They could fit out a mark 3 with half a dozen chaises longues and tables with bowls full of fresh fruit, and if they choose to call that a Standard Open, that's what it is.

Exactly, and that is my point. If a carriage is designated as being first class by being marked as such, it doesn't become second class just because the train it is in is marked as "second class only" in the timetable.

It only becomes second class if the railway company either reclassifies it by removing the first class markings or adds signs that state that it is for the use of second class passengers. An example of this was when, around 2008-9, Virgin West Coast declassified one of the first class carriages in some of the Pendolino sets to rebalance the 1st/2nd ratio in, I think, the 9-car sets pending their being extended to 11-car. The affected carriages retained their first class seating and table fittings, but the first class markings on the outside and inside were removed or covered over, and that is the key point.

 

Jim 

[keefer]

Examples of a official declassification without much alteration include mk1 FO to SO and various mk2-2c FK and BFK to SK/CK and BSK,  from the early '80s into the '90s. These had the yellow stripe and door '1' marking removed but stayed pretty much intact, so you would be getting 1st class seating for a 2nd class ticket.

When, later, more 1st class mk2d-f coaches became surplus they went further by putting in 2+2 seating, albeit to the original 1st class seat pitch. Once into sectorisation, seating was put in at 2nd class seat pitch, hence the start of seats not all lining up with windows. (Which eventually led to the airline style seating where there were only about 4 sets of seats with a table, the rest being pairs of seats with a drop-down tray in front of you)

Edited June 9, 2019 by keefer

[Caledonian]

6 hours ago, AMJ said:

In the 1980's we used to look for and like the "For use by passengers with 2nd class tickets" window stickers as that meant an instant free upgrade.

 

 

I remember one of those at Edinburgh Waverly. It was a bit surreal because I had to literally fight my way through a massive barricade of BRUTE trolleys to find a seat and instead emerged on to an empty platform next to a Mk 1 FK with one of those stickers. Nobody else bothered to fight their way through so I found myself travelling all the way to York with a first class carriage all to myself.

 

[royaloak]

So all those years I spent as an SWT Guard on suburban services I was wrong for saying the 450 1ST class section was automatically declassified as it was a Standard Class Only service even they had the dots outside and 1ST class markings inside, despite having notices from SWT saying they were declassified, who knew!

[Bomag]

45 minutes ago, royaloak said:

So all those years I spent as an SWT Guard on suburban services I was wrong for saying the 450 1ST class section was automatically declassified as it was a Standard Class Only service even they had the dots outside and 1ST class markings inside, despite having notices from SWT saying they were declassified, who knew!

 

Since SWT did not work to BR's Conditions of Contract then no. Without re-reading the relevant bumph for post 1993 Act I think that services advertised as steerage should only have tickets available in one class so there is no 1st ticket to 'upgrade' to; this always seemed odd where there may be multiple operators some with 1st. It may have changed sine it is some time since I read it.

[Phil R]

I'm sure I remember reading in one the Marsden Recognition guides that as well as the other changes mentioned earlier, the carpets were also removed from Mk2 FKs when they were declassified to SKs.

 

A number of Mk2f FOs were declassified to SOs (64xx) and then later converted to "high density" (my terminology) TSOs (68xx no range) around 1990 for use on commuter services on the MML to St Pancras and the ECML to Kings Cross.  The latter conversion involved altering the internal layout, IIRC they had 70+ seats many in airline style configuration.

 

Regards

 

Phil

[Pete the Elaner]

11 minutes ago, Phil R said:

A number of Mk2f FOs were declassified to SOs (64xx) and then later converted to "high density" (my terminology) TSOs (68xx no range) around 1990 for use on commuter services on the MML to St Pancras and the ECML to Kings Cross.  The latter conversion involved altering the internal layout, IIRC they had 70+ seats many in airline style configuration.

 

Some made their way to the Anglia services too. I think they had 74 seats, which was more than a (longer) Mk3. TSO

No wonder they felt cramped.

 

As for regular declassification, I understand the Thameslink services have a 1st class section at each end of the train, but the rear is always declassified.

[Wickham Green]

12 hours ago, royaloak said:

So all those years I spent as an SWT Guard on suburban services I was wrong for saying the 450 1ST class section was automatically declassified as it was a Standard Class Only service even they had the dots outside and 1ST class markings inside, despite having notices from SWT saying they were declassified, who knew!

First Class was abandoned in London in 1941 ( temporarily - but permanently ) so what's the situation with First Class seating on trains within the area ? : if there's no published First Class fare from - say - Waterloo to Surbiton can the 'great unwashed' occupy those seats at will ? 

[Wickham Green]

19 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

.................. more seats next to blank panels rather than a Window) ..................

 

 

Is that where the Pendolino designer got the idea from ??!?

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green said:

First Class was abandoned in London in 1941 ( temporarily - but permanently ) so what's the situation with First Class seating on trains within the area ? : if there's no published First Class fare from - say - Waterloo to Surbiton can the 'great unwashed' occupy those seats at will ? 

No.

To quote the National Rail Conditions of Travel

15.2. Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation (including standing in corridors or passageways) with a standard class Ticket. This applies even if there are no vacant seats in standard class.

A carriage, or part of a carriage, designated as first class accommodation remains first class, even if the service in which it is travelling is shown as second class only in the timetable. It does not become available to passengers with second (standard) class tickets until such time as notices are displayed to that effect, or an instruction given by a member of the Train Company's staff acting in the course of their duty.

 

Jim

 

[Wickham Green]

If, say, the steerage is full and you occupy a First Class seat then offer to pay the excess when ( if ) asked - what should be the reply when there is, presumably, no valid First Class fare a) on a line such as Waterloo-Surbiton where First Class stock DOES run or b) on a purely suburban line where First Class stock wouldn't normally be rostered.

[stewartingram]

Prior to retirement 18 months ago, I commuted on the GN services from Ely, and earler, from Huntingdon to KGX. The Ely journeys were all TSGN, whilst the Huntingdon ones were back in the days of WAGN & FCC. I had sporadic de-classifications in WAGN days, with more in FCC times. When TSGN took over, it actually became policy to de-class 1st in the units were short-formed; I( regularly checked their website just prior to travel to see if it was short-formed!

Not that there was any real difference between the 2 classes anyway, but if I knew about it I was able to grab a seat before anyone else (including the 1st class ticket holders).

 

Stewart

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green said:

If, say, the steerage is full and you occupy a First Class seat then offer to pay the excess when ( if ) asked - what should be the reply when there is, presumably, no valid First Class fare a) on a line such as Waterloo-Surbiton where First Class stock DOES run or b) on a purely suburban line where First Class stock wouldn't normally be rostered.

If you are in the position of being a revenue inspector, and that situation arises, I would refer to your employer for clarification on that one.

 

The legally correct action is (assuming that they have standard class tickets in the first place) to eject them from the first class accommodation as they have no right to be there, and you could call for a BTP officer to enforce that. But, you would almost certainly find yourself in a minority of one, with zero support, so I would expect the guidance from your employer to be that if the wrong stock has been used on a second class only service, you should advise passengers that the first class has been declassified (as per section 15.2 of the NCT).

If between Surbiton and Waterloo, your employer might remind you that there is a first class fare available, so you should have issued an appropriate penalty fare.

 

Jim

[Nearholmer]

This is real pedantry, the proper sort, but ......

 

Isn't the accepted term "de-classify", rather than "un-classify"?

 

And, regarding the above, certainly when I commuted to London on a daily basis (its so nice to be able to write that in the past tense after so many years!), the guard would sometimes "de-classify" all or part of the first class on the spot, to relieve overcrowding in standard class by using empty seats. He or she would then hand out bits of paper inviting first-class ticket-holders to reclaim the difference because they'd had to sit next people, although I doubt that any ever did. And, similarly, guards would declare firsts on second-only services de-classified on the spot.

[royaloak]

5 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

If, say, the steerage is full and you occupy a First Class seat then offer to pay the excess when ( if ) asked - what should be the reply when there is, presumably, no valid First Class fare a) on a line such as Waterloo-Surbiton where First Class stock DOES run or b) on a purely suburban line where First Class stock wouldn't normally be rostered.

Most of the SWT/SWR Guards on the suburban routes are non commercial so they wont be able to sell you an upgrade, hence the Guard making announcements that the service is Standard class only and all seats are available to Standard class ticket holders. As Nearholmer has confirmed with his daily commutes.

 

In my time the Peak hour Sheppertons via Twickenham were formed from 450s and 1ST class was automatically declassified, there wasnt even a 1ST class fare available on that flow, there were others I cannot recall.

 

Note-

Nearholmer and myself are recounting real world experience and not simply quoting from a book!

Edited June 10, 2019 by royaloak
Spelling.

[Caledonian]

On 09/06/2019 at 21:46, Caledonian said:

 

I remember one of those at Edinburgh Waverly. It was a bit surreal because I had to literally fight my way through a massive barricade of BRUTE trolleys to find a seat and instead emerged on to an empty platform next to a Mk 1 FK with one of those stickers. Nobody else bothered to fight their way through so I found myself travelling all the way to York with a first class carriage all to myself.

 

 I should have mentioned that after exploring this dirty great empty carriage I worked out that the only reason it had been downgraded was because one of the lavatories was locked as out of order. Otherwise the luxury was undimmed - and I only needed one loo anyway.

[w124bob]

On 10/06/2019 at 09:16, Phil R said:

I'm sure I remember reading in one the Marsden Recognition guides that as well as the other changes mentioned earlier, the carpets were also removed from Mk2 FKs when they were declassified to SKs.

 

A number of Mk2f FOs were declassified to SOs (64xx) and then later converted to "high density" (my terminology) TSOs (68xx no range) around 1990 for use on commuter services on the MML to St Pancras and the ECML to Kings Cross.  The latter conversion involved altering the internal layout, IIRC they had 70+ seats many in airline style configuration.

 

Regards

 

Phil

I've got the book in front of me know, Scotrail mk2c compo's 4 converted in 1985. 4 second class compartments created by removeal of carpets and headrests numbers given are 7550-7561 blue grey with Intercity Scotrail livery , yes thats more than 4 numbers but Colin Marsden impiles future conversions to follow. A number of other mk2c's coverted to full 2nd class status, 19xxx series.