how to unglue a motor

[ecgtheow]

I bought a very nicely made (soldered as far as I can see) & painted kit built w/m 00 gauge LMS Garrett loco some time ago & then forgot about it while I built my "new" layout. The scope of that layout has changed (much less ambitious) so I no longer want the Garrett & decided to sell it on eBay. Obviously it needed checking out first. I found that it didn't go. On investigating further one armature of the motor is burnt out & the motor has been solidly glued in, as has the worm on the motor shaft without a grub screw. I removed a small screw underneath the chassis which should have released the motor, but there was another small screw which could not be moved, probably glued the same way. The glue looks like an epoxy resin though I am not sure about that. Has anybody else come across this problem & can anyone suggest how I might get the useless motor out? I don't want to spend much on this apart from fitting a new motor & worm as I want to sell it on.

 

William

[Phil Parker]

Photos would be useful. I suspect you're going to need to chip the glue away, but it's difficult to tell.

[hayfield]

Paint stripper may soften it

[melmerby]

Gentle* heat might help soften the adhesive. Enough so it's hot to the touch but not so hot it damages paintwork

 

*e.g. hairdryer

[AMJ]

Some adhesives will become very brittle if you freeze them.  This will then allow you chance to try gentle prising. 

[ecgtheow]

Thanks for these suggestions. The loco is still in the UK while I am in Switzerland, but I will be in the UK again on 30 June so will try these suggested solutions if it can be done without damaging the loco too much. Otherwise it goes on eBay described accurately for somebody else to try.

 

William

[The Johnster]

Strip the chassis down as much as you can.  Drill the immovable screw out, and put the loco in the freezer overnight.  Then give the motor a sharp tap with a hammer; it'll probably snap off.  

 

This leaves the problem of the gear.  I cannot see how you can remove it from the chassis without major destruction.  If the axle revolves free and true it may be possible to retain it and use it with the new motor, but the new motor will of necessity have a new worm, and previous wear on the gear may make meshing difficult.  I'm wondering why this glueing was done in the first place, and it's possible that it was a bodge to overcome poor meshing, in which case it's odds on that the gear has been badly mangled.

 

Your best bet IMHO is not to waste your time trying to save the gear and the axle.  Using a Dremel or similar, grind the axle away between the frames (you won't have room to get a slitting disc or circular saw in there) until it breaks, at which you will be able to withdraw the broken part-axle from one side.  If you are lucky, you might be able to wiggle the other piece out as well, complete with the gear, at which point you are ready to replace the axle and gear with new, fixed properly with the grub screw.  If not, you need to grind the other part away as well, after which the old gear and the centre part of the axle will drop out and the other piece can be pulled out of the frame.  This is brutal and time consuming, and goes against any principle of creative and disciplined modelling, but you might end up with a running loco from it and it will cost no more than you have already accepted as inevitable.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

This leaves the problem of the gear.  I cannot see how you can remove it from the chassis without major destruction.  If the axle revolves free and true it may be possible to retain it and use it with the new motor, but the new motor will of necessity have a new worm, and previous wear on the gear may make meshing difficult.  I'm wondering why this glueing was done in the first place, and it's possible that it was a bodge to overcome poor meshing, in which case it's odds on that the gear has been badly mangled.

 

 

Once the motor is out a soldering iron on the end of the worm will probably loosen it, in which case it can be re-used.

[The Johnster]

Yeah, didn’t understand the original problem properly; the worm is glued to the motor shaft, not the gear to the axle.  Depending on gear wear the gear may be usable with a new worm, but if not it can be removed in the normal way and replaced.  All this rubbish I’ve been going on about regarding axles and gears is irrelevant!

[PatB]

Heat is the enemy of most adhesives you're likely to encounter. For glued in screws, try applying the tip of a soldering iron to the screw head for a few moments before attempting to undo it. Some adhesives (decent epoxies spring to mind) can regain a lot of their strength as they cool, unless they've been really hot, so you need to work quickly. The expansion and contraction associated with repeated heating and cooling can also assist in breaking a brittle bond, such as provided by most cyano superglues.

[bécasse]

The worm has probably been "loctited" to the motor shaft. Boiling water should suffice to break the bond, something I discovered when I saw an exhibitor dipping one end of a failed motor in a plastic cup of newly purchased tea at a show, and asked why.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

The worm has probably been "loctited" to the motor shaft. Boiling water should suffice to break the bond, something I discovered when I saw an exhibitor dipping one end of a failed motor in a plastic cup of newly purchased tea at a show, and asked why.

No, he mistook the motor for his chocolate biscuit!

[The Johnster]

Be careful of heating cyano superglues; the cyano part will give off cyanide gas, which can apparently be less than beneficial to one's health or, indeed, further ability to be counted yet amongst the living...

[Tony Wright]

On 19/06/2019 at 15:10, ecgtheow said:

I bought a very nicely made (soldered as far as I can see) & painted kit built w/m 00 gauge LMS Garrett loco some time ago & then forgot about it while I built my "new" layout. The scope of that layout has changed (much less ambitious) so I no longer want the Garrett & decided to sell it on eBay. Obviously it needed checking out first. I found that it didn't go. On investigating further one armature of the motor is burnt out & the motor has been solidly glued in, as has the worm on the motor shaft without a grub screw. I removed a small screw underneath the chassis which should have released the motor, but there was another small screw which could not be moved, probably glued the same way. The glue looks like an epoxy resin though I am not sure about that. Has anybody else come across this problem & can anyone suggest how I might get the useless motor out? I don't want to spend much on this apart from fitting a new motor & worm as I want to sell it on.

 

William

An interesting problem, William,

 

I assume the Garratt is K's? If so, are the motors K's? Are the wheels K's? If the answer to the last two questions is 'yes', then I'd suggest a rebuild of both chassis with decent motors and decent gears/gearboxes. 

 

I've come across this 'glued-in' motor problem before. At best it's poor building - at best! 

 

A solution? Strip the whole chassis down (removing wheels, valve gear, etc) and dunk it in the old-fashioned (not water-based) Nitromores paint-stripper overnight. This will destroy the adhesive's bond (whatever it is, even epoxy). It'll also mean the motor will fall to bits if it's K's, because the original Mk.1 and Mk.2 motors were Araldited together! 

 

If the worm need be removed from the motor's armature, then use a gear-puller. If a gear wheel need be removed from an axle, either tap the axle through (after removing the wheels) or put a piercing saw either side of it and just saw through the axle.

 

May I ask, what might the loco be worth? Obviously, in it's current state, not all that much. 

 

If not sure, send the whole lot to me and I'll investigate. Or, if you're in England soon, pop over here and bring it. A good-running, well-painted LMS Garratt in metal might well be worth a bit.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[The Johnster]

Like Tony, I've been assuming a K's kit and am suspicious of the glued in motor.  Why would anyone glue in a motor?  The most likely answer is that it was impossible to achieve meshing with the screw fixing, and one has to now ask what might cause that.  It's poor building at best as Tony says, but if the kit was built according to the instructions, and the motor correctly positioned, it should ensure correct meshing of the gears. 

 

Should doesn't necessarily mean did, though.  There may have been an uneven surface on the top face of the chassis block where the motor rests which has led to this situation, or debris that got in between the motor and the block without the original modellers' being aware of it.  Faced with this and unable to mesh, having done it according to the instructions, an inexperienced modeller may well have resorted to glueing the motor as a bodge, being afraid to mutilate the chassis block.  It's not unlikely that this was partly and temporarily successful, and that the model ran, albeit badly, and eventually burned out it's motor, in this scenario.  IIRC K's kits (the few I built anyway) had brass chassis blocks and went together well enough.

 

If you are going to make a restoration project of it, you can do no better than to follow Tony's advice and completely rebuild the loco.  Few people know more about what they are talking about than he does, and it could prove a satisfying, fun exercise in it's own right.  It'll probably cost you a new motor and gears, and quite a bit of time, though...

[ecgtheow]

Thanks everyone for their advice. I will probably take up Tony's very kind offer as I really don't have the time to do all he suggested (I would have sent a private e-mail but his inbox is full). I need the time I have available to finish building my now much simpler than originally planned layout. I will however, put some photos on here at the weekend as the model is very nicely built in my opinion & it doesn't have a K's motor unless they have 5 poles. I can't remember if they do as the 1st loco  model I built (I have only built 3) was about 55 years ago. It was a K's GWR 2-6-2T which waddled at best when it ran intermittently.

 

William

[Tony Wright]

5 hours ago, ecgtheow said:

Thanks everyone for their advice. I will probably take up Tony's very kind offer as I really don't have the time to do all he suggested (I would have sent a private e-mail but his inbox is full). I need the time I have available to finish building my now much simpler than originally planned layout. I will however, put some photos on here at the weekend as the model is very nicely built in my opinion & it doesn't have a K's motor unless they have 5 poles. I can't remember if they do as the 1st loco  model I built (I have only built 3) was about 55 years ago. It was a K's GWR 2-6-2T which waddled at best when it ran intermittently.

 

William

You must have my home e-mail, William,

 

Just contact me through that, please. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[hayfield]

19 hours ago, ecgtheow said:

Thanks everyone for their advice. I will probably take up Tony's very kind offer as I really don't have the time to do all he suggested (I would have sent a private e-mail but his inbox is full). I need the time I have available to finish building my now much simpler than originally planned layout. I will however, put some photos on here at the weekend as the model is very nicely built in my opinion & it doesn't have a K's motor unless they have 5 poles. I can't remember if they do as the 1st loco  model I built (I have only built 3) was about 55 years ago. It was a K's GWR 2-6-2T which waddled at best when it ran intermittently.

 

William

 

William

 

The Mk 1 & 2 motors were 5 pole, not too certain about the newer HMP motors

[Tony Wright]

I hope readers of this thread will be pleased to know that the Garratt (not Garrett) in question is now fixed. Well, up to a point. 

 

I'll explain. 

 

It arrived this morning, well wrapped and under guaranteed cover. However, it's been super-glued together (who in their right mind glues metal loco kits together?) and, consequently (and as might be expected), there were several bits which had come adrift! No matter, no real damage, and it's now back in three pieces. 

 

Now, contrary to what had been suggested, the motor had not been glued into the frames, neither had the gearwheel been glued to the driven axle (though the worm is a friction-fit on the armature). Dismantling wasn't that difficult. However, the motor just turned very slowly under power. On further investigation, the top insulated brush (it's a D11 open-framed motor) had worked loose. So crude was the soldering of the pick-up wires to this, that adjustment was impossible with them left in place. So, a quick dab with the iron to remove them (also getting rid of the great big mound of grey solder!), adjust the brush, re-solder with minimum amount and off it went. A quick clean, pick-up adjustment and oil and now it's a good-runner. It'll haul itself with ease, but with a heavy train? It really could do with two motors. 

 

It's a K's kit with Romford wheels and a decent motor, so is mechanically-sound now. 

 

Look out for it coming up for sale! 

[Dunsignalling]

On ‎19‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 15:10, ecgtheow said:

I bought a very nicely made (soldered as far as I can see) & painted kit built w/m 00 gauge LMS Garrett loco some time ago & then forgot about it while I built my "new" layout. The scope of that layout has changed (much less ambitious) so I no longer want the Garrett & decided to sell it on eBay. Obviously it needed checking out first. I found that it didn't go. On investigating further one armature of the motor is burnt out & the motor has been solidly glued in, as has the worm on the motor shaft without a grub screw. I removed a small screw underneath the chassis which should have released the motor, but there was another small screw which could not be moved, probably glued the same way. The glue looks like an epoxy resin though I am not sure about that. Has anybody else come across this problem & can anyone suggest how I might get the useless motor out? I don't want to spend much on this apart from fitting a new motor & worm as I want to sell it on.

 

William

I once set out to remove the dodgy paint job from an otherwise OK SR Z tank built from a Millholme kit that had been assembled with epoxy.

 

The product used was called "Modelstrip" (no idea if its still available) and, after a night in a plastic bag in the airing cupboard, I ended up with a kit.

 

If you can get the stuff, I'd recommend it. Just take care not to get any where you don't want anything to come apart.

 

John