Newbie Question - DCC/Computer Control

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 I've bought some miniature infrared ranging laser modules (approx. £4 each) for sensing where the end of a train is with respect to the buffers but that is a very specific application.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

Now that is something I could use.

Could you tell what they are/where to buy please?

Edited September 2, 2019 by melmerby

[NIK]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Now that is something I could use.

Could you tell what they are/where to buy please?

Hi,

 

I bought mine from AliExpress (VL53L0X module) from £1.76 + 80p postage.

 

They need a controller to read the distance data - I used an Arduino Nano clone and VL53L0X interface software I found on the internet.

 

The chip produces a cone of Infrared so pointing the chip in the right direction is important to not get too many reflections from buildings on the layout.

 

I've yet to try black tubes over the sensor optics to restrict its view.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

 

 

 

[melmerby]

On 02/09/2019 at 21:01, NIK said:

Hi,

 

I bought mine from AliExpress (VL53L0X module) from £1.76 + 80p postage.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

Do they take those ridiculously long delivery times quoted e.g. 30-50 days from ordering?

I've tried to find UK sellers but they all want typically 4x the price.

[WIMorrison]

I have had stuff arrive quicker from AliExpress than some ‘UK’ suppliers but I general I would say it is 2-3 weeks

[Junctionmad]

It’s like making wine , I keep a steady stream of bits from AliExpress such that a couple of deliveries occur every week 

[melmerby]

21 minutes ago, Junctionmad said:

It’s like making wine , I keep a steady stream of bits from AliExpress such that a couple of deliveries occur every week 

It's a pity more of the sellers don't keep UK/EU stocks as I've had a few items from Chinese sellers where they can be delivered in a few days as the stock is already here and the prices are not overly expensive.

(The extra is mainly to cover UK postage charges and VAT)

[Junctionmad]

19 minutes ago, melmerby said:

It's a pity more of the sellers don't keep UK/EU stocks as I've had a few items from Chinese sellers where they can be delivered in a few days as the stock is already here and the prices are not overly expensive.

(The extra is mainly to cover UK postage charges and VAT)

My own view is that the prices are such that anyone can keep good stocks of common components , toggle switches , relays , push buttons , various connectors etc. This means that (a) if I need emergency bits , I generally have them , and outside that I use conventional next day distribution while ordering these components from china. 

 

I generally find it takes about 15 working days. 

 

 

[Wordsmith]

Sorry 'bout long posting hiatus - a few things cropped up elsewhere.

 

So, my intent is to build a small layout (no scenery) on a 4ft x 2ft baseboard to get a basic idea of how DCC and computer control work. So If I wanted to buy a DCC controller suitable for experiments with computer control and which I could later used on a larger layout (say 30 - 40 points and a dozen locos), what would anyone recommend?

 

I'm planning to get the DCC side of things worked out first, then play with computer control as phase 2.

 

Caveat emptor on the choice of DCC controller - my call and my risk...

 

Cheers,

 

Wordsmith

[WIMorrison]

@Wordsmith isn't this a repeat of your fist post?

[FoxUnpopuli]

36 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

@Wordsmith isn't this a repeat of your fist post?

 

He's not punched anyone yet...  he's asking the question again because reading the thread through, no-one's actually answered it.  You came close:  "I personally think that there are only 2 options, for both hardware and software that could be as cheap as around £350 for software and command station up to £1000 for another option with my preferred option sitting at around £450."

 

And he replied:  "I'd mentally budgeted around £500 for controller and software. I'd like a workable solution, but not a Rolls Royce of one."

 

Then @jamespetts also came close by saying he went LocoNet (implying Digitrax hardware?) but then also said he was only partway through his journey.

 

@WIMorrison: What do the 3 combinations you mention (£350, £450 preferred, and £1000) actually consist of, to get @Wordsmithsome coherent recommendations on the baseboard, so to speak?

[Phil S]

2 parts to the answer .... a device which generates dcc track signal with enough power to run a loco, and a computer interface.

try looking at rhe sprog website to see if itvis a cheap effective 2 in1 solution to experiment with .... that also has a long term usage.

 

other interfaces  are available as kits from Germany .... but many not supplying due to Brexit changes  eg open dcc. a Czech company similarly will now only supply certain countries.   Hornby have their e interface unit which can drive a train using their railmaster  .... an available alternative to sprog and chosen software.

 

 

[WIMorrison]

48 minutes ago, FoxUnpopuli said:

What do the 3 combinations you mention (£350, £450 preferred, and £1000) actually consist of, to get @Wordsmithsome coherent recommendations on the baseboard, so to speak?

 

My recommendations from my original post would be;

1. DR5000+iTrain Standard ~£350
2. Z21+iTrain Pro ~£550
3. Z21+TC9 Gold ~£1000

The Z21 and iTrain have gone up slightly due to the parlous state of the exchange rate, but they are still available for around £375 from Germany and less if you buy second hand, which doesn't happen very often.

 

I have not included the costs of feedback detectors, turnout motors, etc as they will be the same across all systems, probably around another £100.

[melmerby]

11 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

My recommendations from my original post would be;

1. DR5000+iTrain Standard ~£350
2. Z21+iTrain Pro ~£550
3. Z21+TC9 Gold ~£1000

The Z21 and iTrain have gone up slightly due to the parlous state of the exchange rate, but they are still available for around £375 from Germany and less if you buy second hand, which doesn't happen very often.

 

I have not included the costs of feedback detectors, turnout motors, etc as they will be the same across all systems, probably around another £100.

C'mon Iain Z21 + TC Gold is nearer £800 not £1000

Z21 black from Hattons = £299.95 + TCGold = €574 (or about £495 at today's exchange rate). Total approx £795.

 

[RFS]

Is iTrain Pro a match for TC9 Gold or Silver? The OP's requirements might easily be met TC9 Silver which is €374 and therefore compares favourably with iTrain Pro at €299. 

[WIMorrison]

I looked at TC9 Silver and found that to get the functionality needed you either had to write complex code or use workarounds (cludges), or more simply but TC9 Gold whereas iTrain provided all the automation straight out of the box.

 

Also, iTrain for the level of use suggested here would be €179, or possibly €229 if he wanted multiple screens - which are both a lot less than even TC9 Silver  

[FoxUnpopuli]

Not wishing to hijack this thread, but honourable Father and I are starting this journey too.

 

Can anyone (@jamespetts) comment on further on the Digitrax/Loconet option, as used on the McKinley Railway? (lots of explanations on their YouTube.)

Edited October 30, 2019 by FoxUnpopuli

[WIMorrison]

Cost, complexity and the need for 11 people to operate it

[melmerby]

Digitrax, although bombproof, are like many North American DCC products and tend to follow DCC trends rather than be at the forefront.

The Europeans, generally, are the innovators in DCC technology. (The DCC standards are based on Lenz's digital system)

When I bought my first DCC system (Lenz) It was a toss-up between that and Digitrax, Lenz won becuse they had been on 28 functions for some time, Digitrax were still on 8 (or 9?) in their top offering.

The Europeans also design (IMHO) the best general purpose loco decoders e.g. Zimo, Lenz.

Edited October 30, 2019 by melmerby

[Wordsmith]

Thanks all for the replies - I'll do some Googling based on them to learn a little more. 

 

I'm planning for it to be my Xmas present to myself...    :o)

 

Wordsmith

[ahellary]

Hi all

 

I have gone the digitrax tc gold route .... I know the owner of mcinley railway and have visited and had train weekends there many times  and we have gone thro the pain of the development of tc right from v 5  ..

 

but I  didn't start with tc as to me it had several very big flaws (all have been corrected now) ... I started with winlok ( unfortunately  it has not been developed in years) the reason I chose Winlok was the scripting was and still is far better than anything tc has even with v9 ...but I begrudgingly had to go tc when hans tanner gave up on the development of winlok ...

 

As for the loconet route there are a lot of modules from various manufacturers that are compattable I must say that I have stuck with the digitrax current sensing bdl168 to provide the feed back to say weather a block is occupied or not but most of the other loconet hardware is by cml electronics (which has now been sold to gfb designs (dig,n,trak)). I use the dac20 point controller which gives you the control of 8 points but also will give you 8 sensor inputs to feed back on to loconetand also you can use it not connected to the dcc output of the command station as it will listen for the point comants on loconet (this has the advantage that if you get a short that shuts the booster down you can still change points to rectify the situation if needed ), also I use the sigm 10 and 20 signal controller that will set the correct aspect depending on condition you program into it (it reads the loconet messages to do this), also available but i dont use it  but i know mckinley does is the dtm 30 which basicly has 30 cells each cell can be programmed to be an input ie from a push button etc or and output if throw a point or light a led based on a turnouts position or track occupancy etc

 

To me the loconet although not actually a very fast network is the better option because.... it works a bit like ethernet in that each device listens on the network and when a device  has some thing to report it asked for permission and then says what it needs to say,  where as xpressnet is more like token ring which means each devive on the network is polled ie asked if it has anything to say ... but this approach is fine for a small number of devices but as the number grows the network gets slower that doesn't happen with loconet McKinley road must have over 100 moduals of various types all chatting together with no speed issues  ... I myself when the new layout is all down in the region of 30/40 modules will be fine as I have that many modules on my old z gauge railway before I dismantled it to go to "n" this summer. 

 

I'm sure Itrain has some nice features ive looked at the manual but it isnt as mature as tc im not sure how many years it is but its a very long time so I'd think for I train to get close to what tc offers in the automation department I think it will need a couple more big releases to get close to tc

 

I met herr Friewald at mckinley railway a few years back as David was having issus with tc and Herr Friewald wanted to see how a British model railway was opperated (although Mckinley road isnt typical its does operate very much like a large club layout) but I think the visit helped tc develop a bit more useable for the UK practices.

   

 

Anthony h-e

 

 

 

[RFS]

There are a number of videos describing the McKinley Railway here - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKvawmRzbSSEvEZzq4hfzmA

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎29‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 21:15, WIMorrison said:

 

My recommendations from my original post would be;

1. DR5000+iTrain Standard ~£350
2. Z21+iTrain Pro ~£550
3. Z21+TC9 Gold ~£1000

The Z21 and iTrain have gone up slightly due to the parlous state of the exchange rate, but they are still available for around £375 from Germany and less if you buy second hand, which doesn't happen very often.

 

I have not included the costs of feedback detectors, turnout motors, etc as they will be the same across all systems, probably around another £100.

Hi All,

I would appreciate someone stating in simple terms the pros and cons of ITrain Pro and TC9 Gold when used with the Z21 and in their practical experience which was easiest to set up?

 

Many thanks

Paul

[Phil S]

BOTH can be downloaded for free, along with their manuals and a sample layout design (in iTrain's case) - some decisions need to be made by the user as to their preferences - influenced by what type of railway they want to run etc   eg US or European and UK signallng support (or lack of) etc etc    Terminolgy ised - is it like a foreign language or is the manual helpful ?

 

The Z21 is a common recommendation above ... and I would concur with that .... even if, as in my case, I use/plan only the track diagram mimic side of things and occupations displays.  [Although for basic computer control you could cheaply experiment with a Sprog - which would be usable afterwards for programming etc,

 

One of the mimic diagrams I posted here recently used 'Rocomotion' - the 'included version' of RR+Co which WAS provided with earlier Roco systems (Rocomotion Interfacee or MultiCentralePro)  --- the diagram is made from a set of tile mosaics which can be displayed in either of 2 sizes.  My eample did NOT include the Describer-Blocks - a white box (when empty) in each setected section.   iTrain uses more rounded graphics (curves not sharp angles) ...   and that may influence your preference as much as how you create a timetabled sequence.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Phil S

[WIMorrison]

@Phil S Next version of iTrain (due this year) has UK Signals for 3 aspect, 3 diverging, 4 aspect and 4 diverging built in (also has northern European, American and Canadian) 

[WIMorrison]

4 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi All,

I would appreciate someone stating in simple terms the pros and cons of ITrain Pro and TC9 Gold when used with the Z21 and in their practical experience which was easiest to set up?

 

Many thanks

Paul

Paul,

 

I think that you need to answer this for yourself as whilst they achieve substantially the same thing in the end they do it in slightly different ways and the answers are a bit like the Apple versus Microsoft debate  whereby whichever you own it is the easiest and best because that is the one that the owner has invested the time in developing for their needs - not to mention that many have invested over many years of upgrades.

 

Both offer free trials, TC9 is 30 days with some limitations on the capabilities, whereas iTrain offers 60 days without any restrictions (This can be extended with valid reasons, though comparing to TC9( probably isn't a valid reason  ).

 

I went through this exercise, also comparing Rocrail and JMRI and made my independent decision, though it was informed by a few helpful souls here.  Many didn't need to do a comparison with anything else as TC was really the only kid on the block a few years ago which is no longer the case and making a choice is required as you will be tied into that program for a while - not many are willing to change, though I have been helping some lately who are changing from one platform to another, or in one case considering and preparing  for the future of his current product.

 

Sorry if this appears unhelpful, but it is an honest answer - only you can make the decision. Feel free to reach out to me for any assistance with iTrain, I am sure someone else will stand-up and offer similar assistance for TC9