125_driver Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 I have built a 4 track layout in a loop and am having trouble connecting the 4 tracks together (to allow all 4 to be powered ). I have done what I did in the past (admittedly 10 years ago) and wired all of the left hand rails together and all of the right hand rails together on the 4 tracks. However whilst the 2 outer loops work ok, the inner two are experiencing all kinds of problems including short circuits and the voltage level on my controller drops in half when I set the points in certain ways . I cannot understand it as I have looked for any short circuits etc and there don't seem to be any, and cannot understand why something so seemingly simple (ie connecting all relevant rails together ) is not working properly. Any suggestions would be very gratefuly received!!! Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Right Away Posted September 27, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 27, 2019 (edited) Missing insulated rail joiners on turnouts perhaps? Multimeter to the rescue! Edited September 27, 2019 by Right Away 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
125_driver Posted September 27, 2019 Author Share Posted September 27, 2019 Sorry I'm not too up on the lingo, what are insulated rail joiners and turnouts? And what is a multimeter? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 More detail needed. Is it a layout with 4 tracks all the way round but with points making connections between tracks? Or double track splitting into 4 for the loops. Is it "Live Frog" or dead frog, set track is dead frog. Is it DCC. I suspect you need at the very least some insulated rail joiners, as in plastic fishplates. A quick sketch drawing would be really useful. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
125_driver Posted September 27, 2019 Author Share Posted September 27, 2019 It is DCC. All 4 tracks are connected by a junction, other than that they run parallel to each other in a loop. It is exactly the same set up I did 10 years ago and I'm pretty sure then I didn't do anything other than wire the tracks together and nothing else and all worked fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
125_driver Posted September 27, 2019 Author Share Posted September 27, 2019 To elaborate further I have managed to get it so the outer 3 tracks all seem ok, however the minute I either set the points for the inner road or I connect the RIGHT hand rail of the inner road up to the rest the problem occurs and the voltage dips and there is a loud hissing sound. Doesn't seem to happen when I just connect up the left hand rail on inner track, only when I connect up the right..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 This is where a drawing of track plan & what is connected to what , would be helpful for us to be able to comment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted September 28, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 28, 2019 (edited) A very quick explanation. There are 2 types of points -- insulfrog and electrofrog. From the description of the problem, I suspect you have electrofrog. The box will say. Eletrofrog (also called all-rail) have everything in the middle from the points past the frog to the end connected together electrically. If you turn the point curved and apply current to the ends of the straight track, it will run through the frog, across the points to the main rail and back to the end. This is a short. When you have a loop, the current can come from a connection anywhere on the loop. To get around this, the rail is disconnected beyong the frog, usually using a plastic or insulated rail joiner instead of a metal one. Peco points often need a bit of fiddling as the plastic is thicker than the metal joiner. You will also need insulated joiners (some people may call them gaps) between the points joining the loops -- one in each rail. Second test: Do trains run the same way on all 4 loops for a given direction setting? If not, one is wired backwards. Turnouts, points, switches are the same thing. A mutimeter is an electrical device that reads volts, amps, and ohms (resistance). Edited September 28, 2019 by BR60103 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
125_driver Posted September 28, 2019 Author Share Posted September 28, 2019 I have standard Hornby express points. Can I ask what is meant by the "frog" ? I shall have another play with the points then and report back. Thanks for all replies so far , glad there are people out there prepared to help! :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted September 28, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 28, 2019 21 minutes ago, 125_driver said: I have standard Hornby express points. Can I ask what is meant by the "frog" ? I shall have another play with the points then and report back. Thanks for all replies so far , glad there are people out there prepared to help! :-) Frog is where the rails cross at the V shape. Can you supply a diagram of your track plan? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Brian Lambert has explained many things on his web site. 1/3 down this page you will find a photo & description of an insulated rail joiner. 1/2 way down it you will find a diagram of a point (actually a turnout...a point is part of it, but that is another discussion which doesn't belong here) with the frog illustrated. Hornby points are all "insulfrog" or self-isolating. If you are using DCC, I don't see how you can have a short circuit with these using DCC but there are several principles you can use (which I would always recommend with DCC or DC) to keep things simple & avoid issues. Always feed power to points from the non-frog (heel) end. Always use insulated rail joiners on the 2 rails connected to the frog. This principle scales up well. You will not get any short circuits but you may get some dead spots. That's fine because you can always add extra power feeds if required. You will never have power fed from unexpected places, which on a larger layout is a very good thing. A multimeter is an electrical measuring device. Many only use it for measuring voltage but I find its ability to measure resistance (a feature many forget about) more useful. The easiest way to describe it is to look at its wikipedia entry . You can buy basic ones at any DIY store & more expensive/accurate ones (which you don't really need for a model railway) from specialist electronic retailers. You can get a practical demo at a model railway club or exhibition Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted September 28, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 28, 2019 57 minutes ago, kevinlms said: Frog is where the rails cross at the V shape. Can you supply a diagram of your track plan? Or a couple of photos? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 (edited) Double check that any feed wires on the problem track area are the to same handed rails as the rest of the railway. That is for example.... all working tracks have a red wire feed to say the right hand rail but the problem track the red is to the left hand rail - result short circuit when point is set towards the problem area. I have used "red wire" but it can of course be any colour, but the same colour needs to be connecting to all the same handed rails everywhere. Next, double check the problem area visually that nothing is causing a short across the two rails in that area. e.g. A metal buffer stop would cause a short or a screwdriver left laying accidentally across the rails etc. even a defective loco sitting on those rails! Edit... to correct spelling and add a missing word Edited September 28, 2019 by Brian Spelling and missing word corrected Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
125_driver Posted September 28, 2019 Author Share Posted September 28, 2019 Thanks for the continued replies. I have removed a set of points and replaced it with an identical set and it seems to have done the trick (touch wood). Maybe there was something wrong with the original set that wasn't immediately obvious??? I now have a new problem!! One area of the track , despite being clean and cleaned again, the loco (and I've tested with a different loco ad well) stops dead and requires to be pushed through the affected area (about 40 cm of track) before it regains power. The area is on the outer loop, no points involved and I'm surprised if it's devoid of power as the other 3 loops don't have a similar problem. Any ideas????? Thankyou.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Loss of power could be due to loose rail joiners (fishplates) not allowing current to flow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
125_driver Posted September 28, 2019 Author Share Posted September 28, 2019 Well I've replaced a few pieces of track and bizarrely it's done the trick, despite the track and fishplates all looking spot on , one of the fishplates seemed to be covered in a light brown oil type substance whether or not that was causing mischief I don't know but all good electrically now, thanks for all the replies and pointers, very useful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Try the thumb test - run a thumb round each rail with DCC power to the track, noting any hot spots at rail joints. Any you come across indicate high resistance whether by gungy joint or loose joiners. If doing this on DC tracks then you need a load and the controller turned up. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Right Away Posted September 29, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 29, 2019 Pleased you have identified the initial problem. It seems from your description that you have a DCC system and are relying on rail joiners (fishplates) for electrical continuity in some areas. It is advisable to provide every section of track with feed wires (droppers) from the so-called main electrical "bus" wire fed from the DCC output. This ensures minimal resistance and alleviates compromising the data signal to the decoders. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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