Imaginary Locomotives

[Zomboid]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The obvious objection to this would be that there is little point in not using space at that end for a cab, which gets you back to square one.   Pairing them nose to nose like the 20s they failed to replace would have produced more power than was needed; there is a limit to the load you can haul imposed by train lengths, determined by signal spacings and braking distances as well as siding and loop lengths.

That space could be used for all manner of other things though. The thing which springs immediately to mind is additional radiators if exported to a hot climate, but there's other things - dynamic brakes, a train supply generator (by shifting other stuff along), stowage for the crew motorbike to summon assistance when it sits down somewhere in a jungle...

 

Not so much use in this country, but then that's why BR bought the 2 cabbed version.

[tomparryharry]

On ‎22‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 02:01, The Johnster said:

1912, the peak year, saw Cardiff docks export 14 million tons, equating to 38,356 tons daily.  3,856 wagons, over 750 trains daily assuming an average of 50 wagons per train.  Call it a loaded train every 2 minutes.  Just to give a bit of perspective...

 

Then add Newport, Barry, and Swansea. 

Yes, quite right. From a operational aspect, Pontypridd Junction booked a path every minute of the day & night across the pinch point at the junction. The only trains not passing the junction was the up empties, going from the up relief towards the Rhondda valleys. Little wonder the Barry Railway came into being.

 

Ian.

[tomparryharry]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Call it a loaded train every 90 seconds in that case; really, we are looking at one a minute as things eased off a little overnight, and it takes them a minute or so to clear into the sidings.  If you take the access as being the TVR Roath branch/GW connection from Pengam, the Rhymney to East Dock, and the Taff's connections to the West Dock, that's a loaded train every 3 or 4 minutes on each approach; just as well they were all permissive block!

 

The Pengam connection handled iron ore and coke traffic for the then new East Moors steelworks, and there was the ordinary dock traffic as well.  Coal trains queued up beyond Pontypridd on the Taff, and storage sidings were built further and further out from the port, as at Aber on the Rhymney.

 

Most pits did not cut or raise on Sundays, but there were men down there just the same; this was when maintenance was carried out underground.  

 

Look for MD* on the WTT's. (Mabons day). Every waiting room on the Taff Vale had a bible available to read.

[rodent279]

12 hours ago, Zomboid said:

That space could be used for all manner of other things though. The thing which springs immediately to mind is additional radiators if exported to a hot climate, but there's other things - dynamic brakes, a train supply generator (by shifting other stuff along), stowage for the crew motorbike to summon assistance when it sits down somewhere in a jungle...

 

Not so much use in this country, but then that's why BR bought the 2 cabbed version.

Oh, I don't know. The crew motorbike might have it's uses, given the state of our railway when something sits down. At least you could evacuate passengers one by one!

(*Tongue in cheek*)

[rodent279]

12 hours ago, Zomboid said:

That space could be used for all manner of other things though. The thing which springs immediately to mind is additional radiators if exported to a hot climate, but there's other things - dynamic brakes, a train supply generator (by shifting other stuff along), stowage for the crew motorbike to summon assistance when it sits down somewhere in a jungle...

 

Not so much use in this country, but then that's why BR bought the 2 cabbed version.

I suppose with radio remote control a single cab doesn't have to be that inflexible, especially when working in yards.

[DavidB-AU]

19 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The obvious objection to this would be that there is little point in not using space at that end for a cab, which gets you back to square one.   Pairing them nose to nose like the 20s they failed to replace would have produced more power than was needed; there is a limit to the load you can haul imposed by train lengths, determined by signal spacings and braking distances as well as siding and loop lengths.

 

Remember this is an export version. Train lengths could be a LOT longer and axle loads could be higher. Also could be a hotter climate so the obvious use of that space would be a bigger radiator.

 

Cheers

David

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Look for MD* on the WTT's. (Mabons day). Every waiting room on the Taff Vale had a bible available to read.

Their Rule Book also stated that regular attendance at a place of worship was advisable if you were considering promotion.  

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Their Rule Book also stated that regular attendance at a place of worship was advisable if you were considering promotion.  

 

Reminds me of a D.L. Smith tale about a young fireman working with an older G&SWR driver. Fireman thought driver was going a bit recklessly; driver, a devout Presbyterian, probably an Elder, replied "I'm no feared; I am prepared." Fireman replied that that was all very well, but he wasn't, yet.

[relaxinghobby]

21 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I would also be a very long fixed wheelbase if the tender and loco are one fixed unit, and would be in trouble on any sort of curve; this really needs to be articulated to work at all.  Bulleid and articulated steam locomotives was not a happy combination...

 

To be fair the OP does stipulate that it is a Mallet.

 

Don't see the need for air smoothing with the speeds attainable on those diameter driving wheels, and given the problems with the Spam Cans' oil baths they would probably have been candidates for rebuilding with Walchearts.  Are we talking about 2 cylinder engine units or 3?.  If 2, you might get away with inside cylinders Q1 style; there's your chassis for an attempt at modelling it, then!

Hi in reply to Satan's Goldfish and The Johnster. I had imagined the steam bogies to be pivoted, at least at one end to give a more flexible wheel base. I'd imagined it as a cheap version of the Leader, the steam bogies being basically 0-6-0 chassis with internal Stephenson or Walsheart valve gear. The streamlining or Bulleid air smooth casing would be to keep the corporate look similar to the pacifics and for easy cleaning you can drive it through the carriage washing plant.

 

Adhesion problems.

I hear your argument about that as the coal and water are used up the weight over the rear steam bogie gets less and the centre of gravity moves forward affecting the adhesion. Looking at the actual Bulleid locos this would have happened on the Leader too as it had a similar internal layout of bunkers and tanks all at the back, see diagram from Wikipedia. And on the last fling of this type the Turf and Oil burner built by the Irish railways CIE had a more balanced arrangement, bunkers at both ends and a double ended boiler in the middle. These were all prototypes and in practice the problems could perhaps have been eliminated to produce classes of efficient and usable motive power. On this forum we can imagine and build castles in the air. Unless someone wants to crowd fund and start a newbuild.

 

 

 

 

 

Diagram form www.semgonline

[Niels]

Maybe Leaders should have been  Heislers.

There is a lot of similarity between Hymeks and Heislers,and the Heislers did not need the hydraulics.

A V2 compound steam engine is a very smooth engine.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Niels

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Reminds me of a D.L. Smith tale about a young fireman working with an older G&SWR driver. Fireman thought driver was going a bit recklessly; driver, a devout Presbyterian, probably an Elder, replied "I'm no feared; I am prepared." Fireman replied that that was all very well, but he wasn't, yet.

Ah, the famed 'Im all right Jack' misunderstanding of salvation's purposes. 'Love your neighbour as yourself' has somehow been deleted from the programme. It's a very curious cultic error.

 

Was it the case in Welsh mining that the men operating the winding engines were preferably selected from lay readers at chapel, for their sobriety and diligence?

On ‎22‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 14:51, The Johnster said:

I'm not convinced either, rodent.  The Bulleid/40/4/5/6 bogies are convenient for modelling it as a fantasy, but negate one of the Hymek's greatest strengths, the power/weight ratio.  A Hymek was a Type 3 that weighed the same as a Derby Type 2 and was more than 25% lighter than a 105 ton EE type 3 for 50hp less prime mover output; this beast is going to weigh more than that just in bogies!...

Equivalent drawbar power to weight ratio was achieved in DE of the same development generation as the Hymek, step forward the BRCW type 3. Smaller output from the prime mover, but the greater efficiency of the electric transmission made for equivalent drawbar power. And the EE type 3 'heavy' argues for itself by longevity in service, for the effectiveness of that approach.

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Ah, the famed 'Im all right Jack' misunderstanding of salvation's purposes. 'Love your neighbour as yourself' has somehow been deleted from the programme. It's a very curious cultic error.

 

Was it the case in Welsh mining that the men operating the winding engines were preferably selected from lay readers at chapel, for their sobriety and diligence?

 

In some cases in some pits, yes. but in reality the correlation between sobriety and and chapel attendance was never proven beyond doubt!  This does not take away from the fact that the winding engine driver had a very responsible and important job, not only for the safety of the men but for the smooth, efficient, and profitable operation of the mine!  

 

There was a very distinct distinction (!) between church and chapel in the South Wales culture of the 19th century, 'church' (the Church in Wales, the established Anglican set up) being the place of worship of the owners and bosses, and chapel (non-conformist, promotive of free thinking, and arguably seditious) that of the workers up to foreman level.  Non conformism, with it's emphasis on committees and the involvement of the congregation in the decision making process, was a major factor in the organisation and running by much the same people of trade unions, co-operative societies  and workers organisation in general; the bosses and owners hated it!

4 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Equivalent drawbar power to weight ratio was achieved in DE of the same development generation as the Hymek, step forward the BRCW type 3. Smaller output from the prime mover, but the greater efficiency of the electric transmission made for equivalent drawbar power. And the EE type 3 'heavy' argues for itself by longevity in service, for the effectiveness of that approach.

I agree, there wasn't much difference in general capability between the BRCW type 3, itself a very long lived type, and the Hymek; both were exceptionally good locos for their day.  The BRCW had the advantage as things turned out of being built with ETH, and of being capable of multiple operation, but I'd rather ride on a Hymek at any decent speed, with those lovely long wheelbase Commonwealth bogies under me!

 

The EE type 3's success despite the extra weight is to do with it's legendary indestructability and reliability, better braking from the 6 wheel bogies and weight, and great adaptability; they are good on traditional mineral traffic, medium passenger work, pretty much anything, and have room aboard for air brakes and ETH.  But a Hymek is still half a coach better!

[Philou]

@The Johnster,

 

Just to chip in regarding coal-train movements into Cardiff, when I were a lad and I waited for my Saturday evening return train to Treforest, on the platform at Queen Street station was a big information board (probably gone now) giving a little history of the station and amongst the gems, it was stated at its peak there were 835 - 835 - train-loads daily through the station. At the time I couldn't get my head around that figure - it now makes sense and matches what you said.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Edited February 23, 2019 by Philou

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

Just wondering what a class 40, would have been like, if it had, had a 3,000 hp engine ??

 

manna

[Satan's Goldfish]

55 minutes ago, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

Just wondering what a class 40, would have been like, if it had, had a 3,000 hp engine ??

 

manna

 

I've probably missed the point, but seeing how the Class 40 was built by EE and so was the Deltic at slightly more than 3000hp, I imagine it would have looked like that. The main difference being the source of the diesel engine.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

Just wondering what a class 40, would have been like, if it had, had a 3,000 hp engine ??

 

manna

Like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_DP2

Not 3000hp but only 10% less, However it might also be like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_50

Mechanically fairly similar.

[Flying Pig]

13 minutes ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

I've probably missed the point, but seeing how the Class 40 was built by EE and so was the Deltic at slightly more than 3000hp, I imagine it would have looked like that. The main difference being the source of the diesel engine.

 

But the Deltic was a beautiful freak.  A loco with a conventional EE-type engine in the 3000hp class looks like a Class 56.

[RLBH]

Exceedingly heavy?

 

You could probably persuade one of the later English Electric 16-cylinder diesels in for something like 3,000hp. I don't know why you'd bother, though - the same engine could go in a much lighter Class 50 or Class 56.

 

On that note: the English Electric diesel is very much a British equivalent to the ubiquitous EMD 567 series, with similar power, size and weight. One could easily imagine equivalents to any of the EMD locomotives coming out of English Electric, had the chance presented itself. I rather like the idea of a 5,400 horsepower Do-Do with two 16CSVTs, myself. Basically one locomotive that can take the place of two Class 50s.

 

Of course, to follow the EMD example, you take two of them, omit the cabs, then put another two single-cabbed Class 50s on two-axle bogies at the outside ends, and use the whole lot to drag 10,000 tonnes up Shap. This might need to be an export job.

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

Just wondering what a class 40, would have been like, if it had, had a 3,000 hp engine ??

 

manna

Much the same as a class 40 with a 2000hp engine, I'd imagine.

I.E. big, heavy, solid, and making a beautiful noise!

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

Much the same as a class 40 with a 2000hp engine, I'd imagine.

I.E. big, heavy, solid, and making a beautiful noise!

 

A beautiful noise indeed....

[Gibbo675]

10 hours ago, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

Just wondering what a class 40, would have been like, if it had, had a 3,000 hp engine ??

 

manna

Hi Manna,

 

I would think that a 3000 hp class 40 just the same except with even more cracks in their bogies.

 

Remember that a class 58 has the same basic engine block as the class 37 and the class 56 has the same basic engine block as the class 40 and  the class 50.

 

Gibbo.

[Northmoor]

17 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

I would think that a 3000 hp class 40 just the same except with even more cracks in their bogies.

 

The engine would fit, it's just a case of whether the bigger cooler group would.  Not seen inside a 40 to know how tight the "packaging" is, but diesels aren't normally blessed with lots of spare space.

[Satan's Goldfish]

10 hours ago, RLBH said:

Exceedingly heavy?

 

You could probably persuade one of the later English Electric 16-cylinder diesels in for something like 3,000hp. I don't know why you'd bother, though - the same engine could go in a much lighter Class 50 or Class 56.

 

On that note: the English Electric diesel is very much a British equivalent to the ubiquitous EMD 567 series, with similar power, size and weight. One could easily imagine equivalents to any of the EMD locomotives coming out of English Electric, had the chance presented itself. I rather like the idea of a 5,400 horsepower Do-Do with two 16CSVTs, myself. Basically one locomotive that can take the place of two Class 50s.

 

Of course, to follow the EMD example, you take two of them, omit the cabs, then put another two single-cabbed Class 50s on two-axle bogies at the outside ends, and use the whole lot to drag 10,000 tonnes up Shap. This might need to be an export job.

 

Not quite sure I'm follow that, but it sounds interesting! Any chance of a rough diagram of what you mean?

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, Northmoor said:

The engine would fit, it's just a case of whether the bigger cooler group would.  Not seen inside a 40 to know how tight the "packaging" is, but diesels aren't normally blessed with lots of spare space.

There are sweeping plains and herds of grazing wildebeeste in there compared to the WR hydraulics!  

[RLBH]

21 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

Not quite sure I'm follow that, but it sounds interesting! Any chance of a rough diagram of what you mean?

 

Basically a pair of these, back to back:

 

 

The outer unit is broadly eqiuvalent to an EMD GP35; the inner, the equivalent to an EMD DD35 booster unit. The ends aren't particularly tidy, and a bit of rearrangement of both units would probably save length (pretty essential on something that huge), but I think it gets the idea across.

 

The EMD version was designed to give 15,000 horsepower to replace the Union Pacific gas turbine locomotives; in turn, they had replaced the Big Boys in dragging exceedingly heavy trains over the Wasatch Mountains. This is actually slightly more powerful; hauling a 10,000 tonne fully-fitted express freight train up Shap really does seem to be about right for one of these.