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28XX

Imaginary Locomotives

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3 minutes ago, RLBH said:

Feeding that back into the resistance calculations linked above - that's a 350 ton train, i.e. ten coaches, and drawbar power. Add another 4.85hp per ton of locomotive, assuming you're on the level.

 

As soon as you start adding hills to the equation, it all becomes much more difficult. A 1-in-200 gradient takes the drawbar power needed for a 350 ton train to do 70mph from 836 horsepower to 1,584 horsepower - and another 2.1 horsepower for each ton of locomotive!

Thanks, that was my next step!

So you can easily see that Shap with 11 on is going to need 2,500hp +, and also why electrics, with 4000+ hp available at the rail at 50-odd mph, could sail over with speeds in the 80's.

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25 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

So you can easily see that Shap with 11 on is going to need 2,500hp +, and also why electrics, with 4000+ hp available at the rail at 50-odd mph, could sail over with speeds in the 80's. 

In fact, a Coronation with a 385 ton train balances at about 42mph on 1 in 75 - to beat that, you need to mortgage the boiler or trade off momentum for height. Which of course you do, in practice, since very few gradients on the British railway network are long and steep enough that you can't do one or both of those.

 

A Class 87 electric, with twice the power at half the weight, balances at 83mph on the same train. To match that with a Duchess, you could only have a trailing load of 28 tons - which might be enough for the dynamometer car and some technical staff, but certainly nothing earning revenue.

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15 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

No..... just, no....

Oh I don't know..... Maybe quasi-Coronation maroon livery, with gold stripes.... Might just work.

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8 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

Aerolite seems to have been, in succession, an exhibition piece then two different locos (the second passing through so many rebuilds as to be virtually three different locos), the final incarnation being scrapped within a week of its users’ retirement. An extraordinary story, but not, it seems, unique https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSWR_F9_class 

 

Watching the video of that Swedish 2-8-0, it does rather seem that once stopped, getting it moving again is a considerable undertaking. That might be ok for a loco built to work a dedicated route but would be of no use in general traffic. 

For another 'pet' loco, check out Rhymney Railway no.16, a tiny 2-4-0T which, while being so pretty as to be practically loco porn, was well past it's sell by and of no practical use but was the favourite of the railway's CME Cornelius Lundie (also of this parish).  He was apparently something of a character, not the first bloke you'd choose to pick an argument with, and he generally got his way.  The loco blocked a bay in Caerphilly works for many years and was scrapped, with some enthusiasm, as soon as the old man kicked the bucket.

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@rockershovel  I imagine that you could apply the Franco-Crosti patent with some success to the l'Aigle layout.   Perhaps a 4-6-4 with 10-foot drivers?   Tall, narrow streamlining to cover both barrels, and a wedge cab to give the crew a wonder view of the wheels. 

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1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

For another 'pet' loco, check out Rhymney Railway no.16, a tiny 2-4-0T which, while being so pretty as to be practically loco porn, was well past it's sell by and of no practical use but was the favourite of the railway's CME Cornelius Lundie (also of this parish).  He was apparently something of a character, not the first bloke you'd choose to pick an argument with, and he generally got his way.  The loco blocked a bay in Caerphilly works for many years and was scrapped, with some enthusiasm, as soon as the old man kicked the bucket.

 

I can’t find a pic of it anywhere! 

 

I do like 2-4-0s, though. They are a quintessentially Victorian design and always look rather “something”... the Beattie Well Tanks are really rather good, like the Adams Radial Tanks, the epitome of their kind..

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56 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

I can’t find a pic of it anywhere! 

 

I do like 2-4-0s, though. They are a quintessentially Victorian design and always look rather “something”... the Beattie Well Tanks are really rather good, like the Adams Radial Tanks, the epitome of their kind..

There ware photos in E R Mountford’s ‘Caerphilly Works’ book if you can get 

hold of one, side tank with inside cyls and outside framed pony.  

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Here you go, from the RCTS “Locos of the GWR”. There were four of them built by the Vulcan Foundry in the 1860s as tender engines to run the RR passenger trains. 16 was rebuilt as a side tank, and survived longer than the other three, 7-9, which were rebuilt as saddle tanks. 

99541669-B411-4470-8B91-27FB184E263A.jpeg.124f0b80b89e685d62988d98d69b58a1.jpeg

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3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

No..... just, no....

Yes, maroon Deltic, with black and gold lining. :locomotive:

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3 hours ago, Northroader said:

Here you go, from the RCTS “Locos of the GWR”. There were four of them built by the Vulcan Foundry in the 1860s as tender engines to run the RR passenger trains. 16 was rebuilt as a side tank, and survived longer than the other three, 7-9, which were rebuilt as saddle tanks. 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_08/99541669-B411-4470-8B91-27FB184E263A.jpeg.124f0b80b89e685d62988d98d69b58a1.jpeg

Was the RR an air brake railway?

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Back to fictional steam, I think a few pages back someone suggested a 2-8-0 derivative of the GWR small prairies.
Here's a shot at one. The boiler is a standard 3 - that's a shorter version of the standard 2 used on the large prairies. Its got a bigger firebox than the Std 10 used on larger 0-6-0s.

baby280t.jpg

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The museum of wales site has this picture of one of the saddle tanks:

 

DI000637.jpg

 

Withdrawn in 1895, put into store and not sold until 1902. Given that is not long before Mr Lundie passed away in 1908 perhaps his affections extended towards the other 240ts or they were just not very good at clearing out the works.

 

The vulcan foundry website has this drawing of the first batch of tender locos:

http://enuii.com/vulcan_foundry/photographs/Drawings/no 419-421 Rhymney Railway 1858.jpg

 

Shows how plausibly mid victorian main line locos can become light railway style tank engines...

 

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21 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

No..... just, no....

 

One does not simple ignore that many 'no's...

 

 

Deltic Unit Maroon.jpg

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15 hours ago, JimC said:

Back to fictional steam, I think a few pages back someone suggested a 2-8-0 derivative of the GWR small prairies.
Here's a shot at one. The boiler is a standard 3 - that's a shorter version of the standard 2 used on the large prairies. Its got a bigger firebox than the Std 10 used on larger 0-6-0s.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_08/baby280t.jpg.48320f84044ede7532438acff32df52b.jpg

 

Handsome, but to what purpose? Less able to cope with tight curves, less power than a “large prairie” or no more than the larger 0-6-2T types? 

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13 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

on a slightly different note, I’m surprised at the configuration - the single power car? 

 

 

I suppose there's nothing to stop you putting the equivalent of an entire Deltic at each end HST style... might be a bit overkill though! The inspiration was the Swiss/Dutch RAm TEE unit which is a similar configuration. 

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1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

 

Handsome, but to what purpose? Less able to cope with tight curves, less power than a “large prairie” or no more than the larger 0-6-2T types? 

 

Purpose? You want a reason? 

Actually my hope it would make a yellow route restriction. Given 4200 style  flex at the rear end it should be able to handle reasonably tight curves - the 17ft wheelbase is 3ft shorter than a 42. So the USP would be heavier loads on lightly specified lines. Given a 200psi boiler TE would be 23,800, so a lot more muscle than a small prairie.
But of course nothing like that was built, so presumably there was no need:-)

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Would have eliminated double heading with 57xx/8750 panniers on the Brecon & Merthyr over Torpantau with the Murgatroyd chlorine tanks.  A version with 4'1" wheels off the 44xx small prairie would have been a pretty good hump yard shunter for Severn Tunnel Jc, as well.

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Posted (edited)
On 14/08/2019 at 14:27, rodent279 said:

Thanks, that was my next step!

So you can easily see that Shap with 11 on is going to need 2,500hp +, and also why electrics, with 4000+ hp available at the rail at 50-odd mph, could sail over with speeds in the 80's.

 

We can make a train power/speed  calculator that is based on first years physics if we use sensible units.

I have never been using apps or excel sheets but did lots of Fortran.

 

Please help.

 

Power(W)  is used to overcome rolling resistance, gradients and air resistance.

 

We need mass of complete train  in kg,

length of complete train in m

Gradient.

Air density is asumed 1.23 kg/cubic metre for over90% of trains worldwide.

g is not 9.81 but 10.Here

Velocity m/sec

 

Rolling resitance is ( 0.0015 times g times mass.) (Newton) and multiplied with speed we get rolling power.

 

Small Gradient (from level where gradient is infinite to 1/200)  power (W) is mass times g times horizontal  velocity divided by  gradient

 

Air resistance  is dynamic pressure( 0.5 times  air density times velocity power two) times equivalent drag plate area.

Air resitance power is air resistance multiplied by velocity.

Equivalent drag plate area for trains (trains are much longer than wide or high) is proportional to length of train and we must estimate it from known runs but can use it for other kinds of trains.

 

Edited by Niels

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3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Would have eliminated double heading with 57xx/8750 panniers on the Brecon & Merthyr over Torpantau with the Murgatroyd chlorine tanks.  A version with 4'1" wheels off the 44xx small prairie would have been a pretty good hump yard shunter for Severn Tunnel Jc, as well.

 

Quoted TE for the 57xx appears to be 22,500 while a 56xx 0-6-2T is quoted as 25,800 and a 42xx2-8-0T  is quoted as 31,450 - so the moral seems to be, that it would not really do anything that couldn’t be done by a 57xx and certainly couldn’t approach the 0-6-2 types. 

 

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I would like to see warning panel yellow applied to a few steam locos to see how they would look: Duchess and A4s come to mind!!

 

JF2682

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40 minutes ago, jf2682 said:

I would like to see warning panel yellow applied to a few steam locos to see how they would look: Duchess and A4s come to mind!!

 

JF2682

Hi jf,

 

Such an idea would be fine for the ends of tenders but smoke box doors get hot to a degree that most paint pigments discolour which is why black is most prevalent. I think that yellow smoke box doors would end up a brownish grey shade in short order.

 

Gibbo.

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The TE is well within the range of the pre group Welsh 0-6-2Ts, and it would be yellow, possibly even uncoloured RA, so potentially available almost anywhere. So it would definitely provide something unique. Whether theres a niche there is another matter. Ive not seen photos of double headed 1600s or 2021s.

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