What loco does this pannier model represent?

[Lacathedrale]

Hi all,

 

I found a lovely llittle kit-built pannier, but I have no idea what it actually is - it looks to my uneducated eye like a 57xx , but I'm not sure at all. I sthere anything that would identify it more specifically or as a particular era/etc. ?

 

 

Many thanks!

[melmerby]

Looks like a GWR 8750, a later version of 57XX with a modern cab, introduced 1933

Chapter and verse on GWR panniers here:

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nopanniers.html

[Lacathedrale]

Thank you so much Keith, I had seen that page but didn't notice the cab wall differences- thank you!

[GeoffAlan]

Gooch's Wandering Railway? Don't the panniers look the same?

[WillCav]

The cab design narrows down the possibilities.  looks like 8750 / 54xx / 64xx / 74xx but you would need to measure a few things and compare to drawings to confirm.  Look at http://www.gwr.org.uk/nopanniers.html

 

Will

 

Sorry for the duplication of answer - took too long to reply and got beaten to it!

Edited October 4, 2019 by WillCav
adding apology

[The Johnster]

All panniers are the same except for those that are different.  

 

1933 style cab with boiler visible above tank tops and a flared chimney means an 8750 as Kieth says.  The only difference between this and the 57xx is the cab and bunker, but within this very large class there were variations of top feed or back feed boilers, a 67xx without vacuum brakes for dock shunting, a 6750 variant of that with an 8750 cab and ball jointed coupling rods for sharp curves.  There was also a condensing variant for the 'widened lines' in London, originally one 57xx type and then 10 8750 type.  Bachmann do the two basic versions, and Triang did an 8750 which appears on 'Bay but is a very crude model by current standards with a completely wrong chassis.  The order in which these were built is not indicated by consecutive number sequences in the 8750s.

 

If it's got a parallel chimney and the boiler protrudes above the tank tops, it's a 2721 or an 1854, very similar older classes originally built as saddle tanks but converted to pannier to accommodate Belpaire firebox boiler replacements.  These had half-cabs but some had 57xx type cabs in their lives, and originally had fluted coupling rods but again some had these replaced fishbelly and, in this condition with a 57xx cab were very similar to 57xx, which were basically a development of them.  The valance below the running plate is the giveaway.  Triang Hornby did a 2721 which is no better than their 8750, but at least the fluted coupling rod is correct for some locos.  The chassis is based on their Jinty, but is wrong for that as well, as the axle spacings are out.

 

If it's got a parallel chimney and the boiler top does not protrude above the tank tops, its a 54xx, 64xx, or 74xx.  54xx has larger 5'2" driving wheels and is an auto-fitted loco with a curve between the rear cab spectacle plate and the bunker side like a 14xx, 64xx is a version of this with 4'7" driving wheels mostly allocated to South Wales for auto work on branches where the gradients were a bit much for 54xx.  The cab rear spectacle plate curve to the bunker side was replaced with a squared off joint similar to the 8750 on later locos.  74xx is not auto-fitted but is otherwise identical to the later 64xx; it lighter and has a higher route availability than the 57xx/8750s.  Bachmann do the 64xx.

 

54/64/74xx were developed from half cab locos that had originally been saddle tanks converted to Belpaire boilers in the same way as the 1854/2721s, the 2021 class.  No RTR model is available.

 

If it's got a protruding smokebox and a domeless taper boiler it's a 94xx, previously produced by Graham Farish and Lima (the Lima had a very crude chassis but the body tooling wasn't bad for those days), shortly (May 2020 hopefully) to be introduced by Bachmann.  If it looks a bit like a 94xx but has no running plate, outside cylinders, Walcheart's valve gear and generally gives the impression of the result of an unholy coupling between a 94xx and a USA tank, it's a 15xx, introduced in 1954 for dock shunting but used for ecs work at Paddington, allegedly because it 'looked more modern' than the 8750s.  The antediluvian M7s at Waterloo seem not to have caused such offence...  There is no RTR 15xx.

 

There was a smaller pannier with 4'1" driving wheels, again originally a half cab saddle tank, the 855, which was replaced by a 16xx in 1954.  This was visually similar to the later 64xx and 74xx but the small splashers were the giveaway.  No RTR is available but it frequently crops up on wishlists.

 

There is one more oddball to mention, a pannier rebuild of the Rhymney Railway 'K' class, an outside framed 0-6-2 tank.

 

Your kit looks like a well finished Keyser model, and should run well if it has the Romford motor and gears recommended for these kits. One of these was my first attempt at a whitemetal kit, and it ran fine but was not as neatly finished as this one.  If you wanted a better 8750, the Bachmann will do fine; the shortcomings of this one are mostly the lack of detail on the chassis and the visible motor and gears.  It could be 'worked up' with tank supports, lifting rings, tank support brackets and the pipework between the running plate and tank bottoms at the cab end, but it sort of is what it is, and I have to say that if it were mine I'd leave it is as a display model.

 

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

10 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

There was a smaller pannier with 4'1" driving wheels, again originally a half cab saddle tank, the 855, which was replaced by a 16xx in 1954.  This was visually similar to the later 64xx and 74xx but the small splashers were the giveaway.  No RTR is available but it frequently crops up on wishlists.

Model Rail have commissioned  a forthcoming model of the 16xx, to be produced by Rapido Trains.

[DCB]

It must be an 8750 as it has the later cab and the boiler rises above the tanks.    That is all the 57XX class less 5700-5799, 6700-6750, 7700-7799, 8700-8749.    54/64/74/16XX have flat tops to the tanks and no boiler bulge and prominent tank mounting brackets bracing tanks to footplate at the front end.

However it lacks the toolbox alongside the centre wheel splasher which is a very distinctive feature of the 57XX.

It looks like it has the later plastic centre wheels and probably the small motor which makes it really a display model.   Previously they had metal wheels by Romford I believe but pressed to the axle. Together with a big K's double ended 5 pole motor and flywheel. I have one of the older ones here under repair and it has better performance than modern Bachmann, much greater traction, more reliable pick up and similar performance, albeit it can't really cope with 2nd radius.  The body isn't really up to current RTR standard but responds well to detailing.   Your body looks a bit high on the chassis

 

[The Johnster]

Yes, I forgot the toolbox; an easy retrofit!

[Harlequin]

The safety valve bonnet is very crudely done.

 

@Lacathedrale What scale? Is it 2mm?

 

[richbrummitt]

It looks like a Thameshead models kit on a Farish chassis and reasonably well done. They did 57xx 8750 and one other variant from memory. Assuming it is one of their kits that narrows it down a lot.

[Lacathedrale]

Yes @Harlequin it's in 2mm - I'm struggling to put together anything that runs better than a bag of hammers being thrown up a flight of stairs, so this seemed an expedient option!

[D9020 Nimbus]

Assuming you're into the GWR in N, then the Dapol 57xx/8750 runs well if a trifle noisily; the Farish 64xx is a pretty good runner; the Dapol 14xx is a bit too fast but not bad (especially when considering it was their first N gauge model) but the Dapol 45xx/4575 is generally a poor runner. The Peco 2251 (if you can find one) is quite good.

 

If you're willing to move into the steam/diesel transition era, diesel hydraulics are pretty well covered.

[Lacathedrale]

Thanks @D9020 Nimbus - I'm actually modelling in 2mmFS rather than N, so it all requires new chassis/etc. to be built. I've got a 57xx chassis in the works, this 8750, and a small prairie in the gloat box I may need to forward date it though, given my success so far!

[D9020 Nimbus]

I seem to remember reading that diesels are generally easier to convert to 2FS... perhaps some class 22s?

[Steamport Southport]

On 04/10/2019 at 16:17, richbrummitt said:

It looks like a Thameshead models kit on a Farish chassis and reasonably well done. They did 57xx 8750 and one other variant from memory. Assuming it is one of their kits that narrows it down a lot.

 

I think you are right. Langley also did 57XX, 8750 and 97XX pannier tank bodies for fitting on the 94XX chassis, but it doesn't quite look like it's a Langley.

 

 

 

Jason