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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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11 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Wouldn't the door tops be wrong for the Metropolitan Railway?

 

11 hours ago, mozzer models said:

yes

& to me thats what makes a Met coach look like a met coach

 

9 hours ago, Erixtar1992 said:

You cant win them all sadly, better have iffy doors than nothing at all i suppose

 

9 hours ago, mozzer models said:

Without the Curved door tops the livery will just look like a GNR or LNER coach even with met lettering etc & never look like a Met coach as it the doors that make it a met coach not the livery

5553164486_e9d31b2be6_c.jpg4mm Metropolitan Rly Jubliee Stock All 1st No302 built from the Bill Bedford Etches & 247 develop by brian mosby, on Flickr

 

5552579359_89ae0b7442_c.jpg4mm Metropolitan Rly Dreadnought 7 compartment Brake 3rd built from the Radley Models kit a by brian mosby, on Flickr

 

5552578109_c1b9129f5b_c.jpg4mm Metropolitan Rly Ashbury Coach set built from the London Road kit by brian mosby, on Flickr

 

Looking at the models (and the real thing) it is apparent that the door tops stand proud. Would an etched or laser cut door tops be feasible? Or even complete sides such as those made for the Ratio 4 wheelers.

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25 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

 

 

 

Looking at the models (and the real thing) it is apparent that the door tops stand proud. Would an etched or laser cut door tops be feasible? Or even complete sides such as those made for the Ratio 4 wheelers.

you could but then its not RTR  & You would need to match the painted teak livery which is the most likely think putting  people off building a kit in the 1st place

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The semicircular parts standing proud are the ventilator hoods.

 

The Hattons Genesis carriages are no more accurate as Metropolitan carriages than they are as Great Northern or Lancashire & Yorkshire carriages, to mention a couple of outliers among the proposed liveries. 

Edited by Compound2632
Substitued L&Y for LNW, as the difference in panelling from that of the Genesis carriages is more radical, as in the GN case.
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On 14/01/2021 at 16:45, Skinnylinny said:

They look very nice, and quite similar to the 1879 block set (4-wheelers) and 1900/1901 block set carriages (6-wheelers, excepting the brake 3rd), if you ignore the duckets being the wrong shape, and the 6-wheelers having arc rather than elliptical roofs. 

However, I think you must be getting confused with livery colours - the LSWR livery was "Salmon and brown" (c.f. Weddell "LSWR Carriages", "Southern Style" and "HMRS Livery Register"). Invisible green was a Cambrian Railway loco livery!

 

Ha, I was looking at these and having the same thoughts, then I saw your post, Linny.

 

You may recall that I deduced the 1879-1881 Brake Third and Third as the most likely candidates for these left two coaches, on a branch train in 1907:

 

post-25673-0-09715300-1548324916_thumb.jpg.d817d49d985f2080f02a3621c6352379.jpg

 

The 1879-1881 4-wheelers are more sympathetic length-wise than later coaches, at 28' (as opposed to Hattons, IIRC, 26' 6").

 

The Brake Third has the right configuration, save only for (i) 2-panels to the luggage compartment, (ii) double luggage doors/droplights,(iii) curved top to the projections.

 

The waist panels are also rather deeper on these LSWR coaches. 

 

However, I think they would capture the overall look of a LSWR train quite well.

 

post-25673-0-71692500-1548325021_thumb.jpg.eab9f072f8c523fa9c75f7b07bff31cf.jpg

post-25673-0-02473400-1548325073_thumb.jpg.2315f6eb8f60b43f0394c1c2c077aeda.jpg

 

 

Rather than a block-set coach, the 6-wheel Lav. 1st you might pass off for the LSWR 32'6" coach of 1888; you're only 6" short on the model, though the compartment and panel spacing is different. That, I think, was an arc roofed vehicle; if so, a better fit. 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

The 1879-1881 4-wheelers are more sympathetic length-wise than later coaches, at 28' (as opposed to Hattons, IIRC, 26' 6").

 

The Hattons 4-wheelers are nominally 27 ft, but there's a whisker to be added for the thickness of the end mouldings.

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In a generic model, it will be more important for the arrangement of doors, panels, windows and duckets to be in the closest possible correspondence to the coaches of your preferred prototype company.

 

That will do far more to create or destroy the illusion than being a scale foot or two out on the overall length.

 

John

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Hattons 4-wheelers are nominally 27 ft, but there's a whisker to be added for the thickness of the end mouldings.

 

Thanks, that makes them closer, then, to the SW prototypes.

 

Yes, I seem to remember that they increased slightly at one stage from the initial Stroudley 26', but my memory these days ....!

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Musing on these coaches as 4-wheel LB&SC Billintons ....

 

I was looking at the Hattons 4-wheelers and (apart from lacking the distinctly Stroudlyesque treatment of the Brake Third ends) thought they would make very good LB&SCR Billinton 4-wheelers.

 

The Hattons coaches I am told should scale at a shade over 27', so close to the 28' Billintons:

 

- Hattons 4-wheel 5-compt. coaches for D57 Second and D58 Third

 

- Hattons 4-wheel 4-compt coaches for D56 First (though the Hattons coach is spaced as a 1st/2nd comp)

 

- Hattons 4-wheel Brake Third for D59/155.  The configuration is very similar, even down to the 3 panels to the luggage compartment. Double doors with droplights to both is the main difference. Hattons have an end ducket, and these were rebuilt with mouldings.  

 

I can't remember what the Hattons 4-wheel wheel base is; for the Billintons it was 16'.

 

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10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

The Hattons Genesis carriages are no more accurate as Metropolitan carriages than they are as Great Northern or Lancashire & Yorkshire carriages, to mention a couple of outliers among the proposed liveries. 

 

Surely all of this discussion fails to address that as generic models they are not supposed to be accurate models of particular stock....

 

Surely this is the same as criticising bananas for not being oranges?

 

Just a thought

Les

 

Edited by Les1952
typos...
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46 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

Surely all of this discussion fails to address that as generic models they are not supposed to be accurate models of particular stock....

 

Surely this is the same as criticising bananas for not being oranges?

 

Just a thought

Les

 

 

The discussion does address that though.

 

The whole "problem" with freelance stock is that when you start comparing it to a specific, in many cases it is missing important features. 

 

Some are closer, but only the individual can really decide if they are satisfied with the result or not.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

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Wonder if there is time for Hattons to change the LBSC  4 compartment lavatory  Composite to either 250 or 251 and the third class lettering to second as per Nick Hollidays comments in the Brighton Circles Christmas 2020 Modellers Digest www.lbscr.org/Models/Digest/LBSCR-Modellers-Digest-12.pdf.

It's a pity the duckets are not separate as that would have allowed different styles to be offered, the flat roof type being provided being wrong for most of these LBSC offering and from a normal viewing distance shape is one of the key issues. Have earmarked a Hornby SR brake 3rd 6 wheeler for one end of the vintage train for my layouts preserved mode and wondering what Hattons vehicle to use at the other end.

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I'm probably committing heresy, but I'm looking forward to a rake of GWR coaches (4 and 6-wheelers) to run with my unmodified but repainted shorty clerestories, at a distance it'll pass muster for a quick (and probably dirty) solution. It will all be 'generic'. I shall get a rake of LNWR coaches as apparently the distinctive livery is not simple to do.

 

Just maybe, if I like the overall look, I might, just might, be encouraged to have a go at some kits as well. The generic ones can then be cascaded down to branch-line workings - or even workmen's trains. I have a photo of some GWR 'brown' ones at platform with what looks like workmen waiting to board. I don't know the date unfortunately.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

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2 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

It's a pity the duckets are not separate as that would have allowed different styles to be offered, the flat roof type being provided being wrong for most of these LBSC offering and from a normal viewing distance shape is one of the key issues.

Having looked at the CAD file for the Hattons carriages when they were available for inspection by the public (I can't seem to find them now) it looked as though the duckets were in fact a separately-fitted part. This would mean that they could be replaced by a ducket closer to the design of the company required, although one would have to match the livery and provide lining where appropriate (although I'd far rather line four duckets than a whole train!). One for the 3D printers, perhaps? 

Certainly that's my intention for my Genesis carriages which will be repainted for my freelance pre-grouping company. 

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3 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

Having looked at the CAD file for the Hattons carriages when they were available for inspection by the public (I can't seem to find them now) it looked as though the duckets were in fact a separately-fitted part. This would mean that they could be replaced by a ducket closer to the design of the company required, although one would have to match the livery and provide lining where appropriate (although I'd far rather line four duckets than a whole train!). One for the 3D printers, perhaps? 

Certainly that's my intention for my Genesis carriages which will be repainted for my freelance pre-grouping company. 

I think they have to be separate to enable the window aperture to be moulded in otherwise it wouldn't be possible. With a solid lump coring out the interior of the body and slides moulding the external features, there wouldn't be a way to mould the ducket windows in situ.

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10 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

Having looked at the CAD file for the Hattons carriages when they were available for inspection by the public (I can't seem to find them now) it looked as though the duckets were in fact a separately-fitted part. This would mean that they could be replaced by a ducket closer to the design of the company required, although one would have to match the livery and provide lining where appropriate (although I'd far rather line four duckets than a whole train!). 

 

Alternatively, having removed the ducket, the top could be modified to match your desired profile (usually a convex curve; then only that part would need to be painted, usually matching the body colour; no lining required.

Edited by Compound2632
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3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Alternatively, having removed the ducket, the top could be modified to match your desired profile (usually a convex curve; then only that part would need to be painted, usually matching the body colour; no lining required.

Depending on the style of ducket, possibly, yes. There does appear to be a raised ridge at the top of the Hattons ducket too, which would need some canny work with a scalpel or files to avoid damaging the lining, to which it will be very close (looks like a millimetre or two, or even slighlty less?)
image.png.36b5899314b4442ef1b0c1e83a8dba33.png
 

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3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Alternatively, having removed the ducket, the top could be modified to match your desired profile (usually a convex curve; then only that part would need to be painted, usually matching the body colour; no lining required.

Matching the body colour being the issue; it would be useful if the appropriate colour codes could be given together with application specifications like what colour is the plastic and undercoat, how many layers of undercoat, how many of the body colour; what varnish and again how many layers 

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2 hours ago, Philou said:

I'm probably committing heresy, but I'm looking forward to a rake of GWR coaches (4 and 6-wheelers) to run with my unmodified but repainted shorty clerestories, at a distance it'll pass muster for a quick (and probably dirty) solution. It will all be 'generic'. I shall get a rake of LNWR coaches as apparently the distinctive livery is not simple to do.

 

Just maybe, if I like the overall look, I might, just might, be encouraged to have a go at some kits as well. The generic ones can then be cascaded down to branch-line workings - or even workmen's trains. I have a photo of some GWR 'brown' ones at platform with what looks like workmen waiting to board. I don't know the date unfortunately.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

That's pretty much my plan too - I've already got a rake of Triang clerestories (albeit which could do with replacement bogies to improve their running characteristics) and one full brake but I've ordered a second to enable me to emulate the Aberystwyth WTT.

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I also note that LSWR duckets had a distinctive ogee shape at the top, which required a bit more height, so the quarter-light-level panels were less tall to allow for this - this would be tricky to do without a complete replacement of the ducket. 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/710042704884793414/800356990064263188/20210117_133158.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Matching the body colour being the issue; it would be useful if the appropriate colour codes could be given together with application specifications like what colour is the plastic and undercoat, how many layers of undercoat, how many of the body colour; what varnish and again how many layers 

Some of that may be kept close to Hattons chest. After all, if their spec proves to be particularly successful, they are hardly going to reveal the secret sauce. 

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@RJS1977 I say 'unmodified' clerestories in that no coach was harmed in giving it newer lease of life. I haven't replaced the bogies, but I did change the wheels to pin-point Jackson discs (remember them? Are they still a thing?) drilling out the axle boxes to take some Peco brass cup bearings - top-hat ones hadn't even been thought of back then!

 

Here's a picture of them with some Graham Farish GWR stock behind. I don't know what period those are but could they go with the 4/6-wheelers as well?

 

DSCF0054.JPG.e1f4f25cb1e4539fa5b64334e75418ec.JPG

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

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4 minutes ago, Philou said:

@RJS1977 I say 'unmodified' clerestories in that no coach was harmed in giving it newer lease of life. I haven't replaced the bogies, but I did change the wheels to pin-point Jackson discs (remember them? Are they still a thing?) drilling out the axle boxes to take some Peco brass cup bearings - top-hat ones hadn't even been thought of back then!

 

Here's a picture of them with some Graham Farish GWR stock behind. I don't know what period those are but could they go with the 4/6-wheelers as well?

 

DSCF0054.JPG.e1f4f25cb1e4539fa5b64334e75418ec.JPG

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Farish OO coaches are generic, too, so why not?

 

John

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