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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

I think that is right.  Ends of coaches from that period tended to be of two sorts, one with vertical boarding over the framework, which I incorrectly called planking, and one with ply sheeting decorated with beading, which I incorrectly called panelling.  The 'panel' is the ply sheet, and the beading a separate component serving a merely decorative purpose, but on the sides, the beading may actually be the part that covers the joins of smaller panels attached side by side to the frame, and this is I believe correctly described as panelling, and the coach as  being panelled.  Common usage describing such coaches' ends as panelled may be less correct.

 

I'm afraid you have misunderstood what I explained. As @Northroader says, there's no plywood involved. The wood sheets are thin pieces of hardwood, usually a tropical hardwood such as teak or mahogany. The beading strips are not purely decorative but cover the butt joints in the panelling. This method of construction is exactly the same as on the sides. It's all panelling. I can't off-hand think of any examples from the main line companies of vertical boarding rather than panelling, until matchboard ends of the 1910s20s onwards or so.

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3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

There were also 'matchboarded' coaches, with vertically placed boards as an outer skin on a wooden inner frame.  Some GW railmotors and auto trailers were of this sort, and they could be found on other railways as well.  It is, I believe, an adaptation of American carriage building practice; the 'wild west' coaches you see in cowboy films are always of this sort, but with end vestibules.  It is not a type of construction that lends itself to compartment stock, but the Ffestiniog has some quarrymens' 4 wheelers of this sort. 

I believe that match boarding was quite popular on the Highland Railway. The SE & CR also had match boarding on the lower half sides of some of its 60 ft coaches. A lot of the earlier Pullman cars were also match boarded as depicted on the Graham Farish 00 cars and some of the Hornby ones.

 

I think that I even saw a picture of a Southern EMU where the match boarding got carried over from a cut and shut using a former SE & CR coach. I cannot remember which book though.

 

All the best

 

Ray

Edited by wainwright1
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1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

I believe that match boarding was quite popular on the Highland Railway. The SE & CR also had match boarding on the lower half sides of some of its 60 ft coaches. A lot of the earlier Pullman cars were also match boarded as depicted on the Graham Farish 00 cars and some of the Hornby ones.

 

I said mine lines...

 

You are quite right; the matchboarding taking the place of the wood panels. However, I think this is a 20th century thing (not sure about the Highland there) so not really relevant to the sorts of 4 and 6-wheel carriages represented by the Hornby and Hattons models.

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17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I said main lines...

 

You are quite right; the matchboarding taking the place of the wood panels. However, I think this is a 20th century thing (not sure about the Highland there) so not really relevant to the sorts of 4 and 6-wheel carriages represented by the Hornby and Hattons models.

The Highland constructed a handful of match-boarded six wheelers circa 1908/9.  Slightly longer than the Genesis types, but very much in the same genre.

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3 hours ago, johnhutnick said:

So are there to be Genesis coaches offered in Highland livery?  I do not see this in batches 2 or 3.


I guess it depends on whether there’s a batch 4+, and that will depend on how the first three batches sell. Only Hattons will be able to tell, and even they only at some point in the future. 
 

You could try asking them directly, of course!

 

3 hours ago, johnhutnick said:

And seemingly undecorated models are not being sold. 


This suggests that you’re not afraid of rolling your sleeves up. So why not by the closest offering and relivery it?

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I'm guessing Hattons will have lost sales to Hornby for the LB&SCR stock. I wonder if it would be possible / prudent to switch from the painted mahogany livery to the earlier varnished wood livery as in the photo in the first post of this thread. They're already 'teaking' the GNR versions. Could they take the teaked versions and switch them to the LB&SCR production line for logos crests and numbers ? Is this possible ? Or am I being stupid ?

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57 minutes ago, GNR Dave said:

I'm guessing Hattons will have lost sales to Hornby for the LB&SCR stock. I wonder if it would be possible / prudent to switch from the painted mahogany livery to the earlier varnished wood livery as in the photo in the first post of this thread. They're already 'teaking' the GNR versions. Could they take the teaked versions and switch them to the LB&SCR production line for logos crests and numbers ? Is this possible ? Or am I being stupid ?

 

That teak one on the first page is LCDR not LBSCR. The carriages Hattons are doing are far to modern in appearance for an earlier LBSC livery. If they were going to switch it then the best thing would be the later umber livery, which ironically is what Hattons called the mahogany livery when they first showed it. (despite what some people seem to think, Hattons never changed the livery they were making, they just started using the right name for it)

 

Gary

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6 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

That teak one on the first page is LCDR not LBSCR. The carriages Hattons are doing are far to modern in appearance for an earlier LBSC livery. 

 

Gary, I'm afraid I don't get this. The Hattons carriages are generic vehicles of, roughly, the mid eighties to the turn of the century - so the idea is that they will pass for carriages built in the elder Billinton's time. The mahogany livery was abandoned in 1903, shortly before his death in service the following year. Therefore Brighton carriages of this type will have been in the mahogany livery from new and presumably retained it in diminishing numbers throughout the reign of Edward VII. I'd take the view that Hattons are right to stick with a livery choice that is compatible with the Hornby offering. This means that anyone wanting to run Terriers in IEG* has a choice of carriage styles and can go some way to representing the mixed rakes seen in photos from the late nineties up to around the turn of the century, while the Hattons carriages are suitable for those with engines liveried for the umber period, up to a point. 

 

*And let's face it: who could resist? It takes a great effort of willpower: repeat after me: Kirtley, Johnson, Deeley; Kirtley, Johnson, Deeley; ...

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I agree that mahogany is the right livery for them, I was just pointing out that the teak livery in picture on the first page was not LBSC, and that they style is too late for a livery earlier than mahogany, that having been used since 1872. So if Hattons wanted to switch to not be releasing the same livery as Hornby (Which I don't think they would at this stage) it would need to be a later livery, therefore umber.

 

Some 6 wheeled stock did receive umber from 1903, but not all. Suburban stock never received the white upper panels, and in one of my books, I cannot for the life of me remember which, but not Southern Style as I just checked, there is reference to mahogany stock not receiving umber and white due to the work required to paint the white panels. So all over umber would be OK for at least some of the Hattons stock, if you use it's genericness to claim it is Billinton stock (certainly easier to do than with Hornby's ones!) but mahogany is definitely the livery I would have them in if I were producing them.

 

Gary

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@BlueLightning, Gary, apologies, there was some confusion on my part. I had assumed the Hornby LBSCR carriages are in mahogany, which, if they represent Stroudley carriages, is the only appropriate livery for them, but having looked again I see they are a sort of plain reddish colour. So it's Hornby not Hattons who are up the creek on this issue, as one might predict from everything else one has seen of the two offerings.

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The Hornby ones are supposed to be mahogany, they seem to have been matched to the Bluebells Stroudley first for colour, they are close to it, but slightly too red, and the finish looks toy like which I think emphasises the red even more. I think they could be improved with nothing more that a coat of varnish, but I haven't gotten around to trying yet.

 

Gary

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Just now, BlueLightning said:

The Hornby ones are supposed to be mahogany, they seem to have been matched to the Bluebells Stroudley first for colour, they are close to it, but slightly too red, and the finish looks toy like which I think emphasises the red even more. I think they could be improved with nothing more that a coat of varnish, but I haven't gotten around to trying yet.

 

Thanks. Perhaps I'm being too literal-minded. Mahogany, like teak, is a close-grained tropical hardwood which exhibits variation in colour depending upon where it is sourced and which part of the tree it is cut from. Therefore I am expecting to see a finish much as Hornby have managed for their teak carriages but distinctly redder, rather than a uniform "paint" finish. Am I wrong?

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Both companies have cheated and and gone for a flat colour, which can be explained easily by saying they are the stock later in life, as once the finish of the wood was such that a revarnish couldn't bring it back to the standard the LBSC wanted they received a coat of mahogany paint, so the uniform finish is not wrong, but it would have be nice to see one of them looking like varnished wood.

 

Stroudley's stock was made from Honduras Mahogany, so that is the type of wood the paint was trying to match.

 

Gary

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

*And let's face it: who could resist? It takes a great effort of willpower: repeat after me: Kirtley, Johnson, Deeley; Kirtley, Johnson, Deeley; ...

I understand what you are saying but you have the wrong names! 

 

Armstrong, Dean, Churchward; Armstrong, Dean, Churchward;.....are what you are looking for! :jester:

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27 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

Stroudley's stock was made from Honduras Mahogany, so that is the type of wood the paint was trying to match.

 

I googled Honduras Mahogany and am none the wiser as to what colour it should be!

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13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I googled Honduras Mahogany and am none the wiser as to what colour it should be!

 

In that case, you are in luck, as I just so happen to have a cabinet made of Honduras Mahogany in my kitchen, seen here with both Phoenix Precision and Hornby's attempt at the colour, So as you an see, Hornby's while not great, isn't particularly bad either (and unlike that other carriage, they at least bothered to do the lining :jester:)

 

Gary

 

819499693_2021-02-2310_45_07.jpg.91e49363bcf62632f8df4a6455127b69.jpg

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I'm not sure it would, it's a very plastic-y finish on the Hornby carriage, although something to tone down the lining would be good, it's brightness is caused by it being over thick, but I don't think Hornby could have made it any thinner, perhaps doing a slightly darker colour would have given a better effect

 

Gary

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2 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

I'm not sure it would, it's a very plastic-y finish on the Hornby carriage, although something to tone down the lining would be good, it's brightness is caused by it being over thick, but I don't think Hornby could have made it any thinner, perhaps doing a slightly darker colour would have given a better effect

 

Gary

Perhaps rubbing it with a finger would tone it down.

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4 hours ago, BlueLightning said:

Some 6 wheeled stock did receive umber from 1903, but not all. Suburban stock never received the white upper panels, and in one of my books, I cannot for the life of me remember which, but not Southern Style as I just checked, there is reference to mahogany stock not receiving umber and white due to the work required to paint the white panels. So all over umber would be OK for at least some of the Hattons stock, if you use it's genericness to claim it is Billinton stock (certainly easier to do than with Hornby's ones!) but mahogany is definitely the livery I would have them in if I were producing them.

 

Gary

This is quite confusing.

Any chance of a simple table showing the time periods and what colours used, possibly linked to the appropriate loco livery/lettering style. Then matching where possible the liveries being offered on these models.

 

Ray

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