'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Michael Hodgson]

I seem to recall reading somewhere in all this lot something to the effect that some of their longer body shells were actually going to be produced on only four wheels rather than six but it would be dependent on the particular livery.

[Nile]

I think you imagined that.

 

edit - or maybe not, see below.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Nile
correction.

[Zunnan]

I wonder how long it will take for a Ratio GWR roof profile to be applied to one of these coaches...Just the roof furniture to deal with then rather than either damaging the original model or painting an entire kit. I do like the relatively cheap and lazy options which come with the biggest effects!

 

44 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I seem to recall reading somewhere in all this lot something to the effect that some of their longer body shells were actually going to be produced on only four wheels rather than six but it would be dependent on the particular livery.

 

Some such as the LMS liveried composite are being produced as a 4 wheeler. To be honest, I'd quite like to reinstate the centre wheelset on this one so I can see quite some swapping and changing going on with these coaches. Its a rather nice thought that has gone into the design of these coaches which enables such easy modification to be carried out intentionally.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Zunnan

[Michael Hodgson]

22 minutes ago, Nile said:

I think you imagined that.

You may be right.  At my age I can't entirely rely on my memory as much as I used to, and it's not just me.  That's why I have my doubts when people say the GWR used lighter/darker brown on their coaches and the AC electrics were a different shade of blue.

[Jammy2305]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

You may be right.  At my age I can't entirely rely on my memory as much as I used to, and it's not just me.  That's why I have my doubts when people say the GWR used lighter/darker brown on their coaches and the AC electrics were a different shade of blue.

No, I can definitely recall seeing the same thing and a recent post suggests you were correct insofar as the LMS examples are being done without the centre axle.

[Jammy2305]

https://www.hattons.co.uk/492381/hattons_originals_h4_4x6cl_501_4_wheel_ex_6_wheel_composite_lavatory_1st_3rd_9531_in_lms_crimson_lake/stockdetail.aspx

 

OK, so just the one LMS example, but it still counts! 

Edited April 16, 2021 by jamesC37LG
Additional text

[it's-er]

Oh boys - there has been such erudite comment on this thread in the last few days, it is most enlightening and interesting.  Thank you so much, everybody!

 

I particularly enjoyed Edwardian's comments on, and critique of, the GNR and GWR coaches, and the ensuing posts.

 

To my mind, from an aesthetic and artistic point of view, these coaches look so much better when the ends are not painted black. That allows you to see the separately applied footsteps - just compare the GNR and LNER coach ends. Much as I may need the LNER coaches, the GNR ones look so good!

 

I think this may be partly because we have been used, over the decades, to footsteps being moulded as part of the body. Hattons are now giving us separately applied footsteps ... and I want to see them!

 

John Storey

 

[Nile]

I stand corrected. Being LMS it must have passed under my pre-grouping radar, so to speak. But as the middle wheel set can be removed any 6 wheel coach can modified in the same way, and there is no cost benefit in this ready de-wheeled model.

[Michael Hodgson]

12 minutes ago, Nile said:

But as the middle wheel set can be removed any 6 wheel coach can modified in the same way, and there is no cost benefit in this ready de-wheeled model.

 

There's a marginal cost saving in labour in the factory I suppose.  Ideally this missing axle & associated gubbins ought to be included loose in the box so you can convert the ex 6-wheeler back should you so desire - making the coach even more generic! 

[Dana Ashdown]

On 14/04/2021 at 14:21, Compound2632 said:

On what evidence?

Mikkel posted a transcription from Moore's Monthly Magazine (Volume 1, No.3, March 1896) some time ago, which Edwardian rightly identified. The full  entry for GWR carriages reads:

 

"The carriages are painted a light brown umber on the lower panels with black margins, a yellow line being run, round on the edge; the upper panels are cream colour with a fine brown line drawn round inside. The lettering on the lower panels, doors, &c., is in yellow, shaded black, whilst the numbers which appear along the upper portion are in yellow, shaded with brown. The underframe is painted black. Horse-boxes, carriages, trucks, &c., are painted a light brown umber all over, with lettering in yellow, shaded with black."

 

As I said, some photographs do appear to show a lighter brown than we would normally expect.

 

Dana

Edited April 16, 2021 by Dana Ashdown

[Edwardian]

7 minutes ago, Dana Ashdown said:

Mikkel posted a transcription from Moore's Monthly Magazine (Volume 1, No.3, March 1896) some time ago, which Edwardian rightly identified. The full  entry for GWR carriages reads:

 

"The carriages are painted a light brown umber on the lower panels with black margins, a yellow line being run, round on the edge; the upper panels are cream colour with a fine brown line drawn round inside. The lettering on the lower panels, doors, &c., is in yellow, shaded black, whilst the numbers which appear along the upper portion are in yellow, shaded with brown. The underframe is painted black. Horse-boxes, carriages, trucks, &c., are painted a light brown umber all over, with lettering in yellow, shaded with black."

 

As I said, some photographs do appear to show a lighter brown than we would normally expect.

 

Dana

 

Compare:

 

The Locomotive Volume 1, No. 3, March 1896 states: "The carriages are painted a light brown umber on the lower panels with black margins, a yellow line being run round on the edge; the upper panels are cream colour with a fine brown line drawn round inside. The lettering on the lower panels, doors, etc. is yellow, shaded black, whilst the numbers which appear along the upper portion are in yellow, shaded with brown. The underframe is painted black."

 

The full version of the reference I referred to, taken from GWR.Org

 

By "yellow", they mean gold. 

 

It suggests that the distance line on the cream panels is in the (very dark) Windsor Brown, rather than black, which is how the HMRS pamphlet has it.  

 

This 1896 reference flies in the face of the general academic view, so it's certainly an interesting challenge!

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, Dana Ashdown said:

Moore's Monthly Magazine (Volume 1, No.3, March 1896) 

 

19 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

The Locomotive Volume 1, No. 3, March 1896 

 

The similarity rang bells; these are in fact the same reference - the magazine started out as Moore's Monthly Magazine but was renamed The Locomotive Magazine by 1897: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14771.

 

This is an observer's description of the appearance of the carriages, which provides an interesting foil to official specifications. The descriptions of colour are those of a non-specialist and should not, I think, be taken as reliable for the paint chemistry. If one googles "light brown umber" one chiefly turns up a tan shade, tending to orange.

 

It's interesting that there is no mention of lining out in yellow / gold around the cream panels. Also "margins" is a highly ambiguous term. 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

tending to orange.

 

Which, now I think about it, makes me think of Dalby's illustrations to The Railway Series. What he saw, round about Leicester in the late 40s/early 50s would have been well-worn LMS crimson lake, well-worn LNER brown, or just possibly a dash of new BR crimson. What he painted was orange - was that how he, a trained artist, perceived one or all of those colours?

[Edwardian]

I don't think the Hattons shade should be any lighter than how the brown here appears:

 

 

Rather pointless picture of the HMRS colour sample:

 

 

The ling scheme (!):

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Curiously, that livery diagram appears to show no gold lining-out of the beading around the door eves panel - which is contrary to the restored carriages at Didcot, where these panels are lined out, though, I think, without the brown line - presumably because the ventilator gets in the way. I think @Penrhos1920 follows that diagram in his livery animation. However, looking closely at the period photographs he posts, I am convinced that Didcot is right and the beading round these panels does have the gold lining.

 

What a morass. Glad I'm not modelling the Great Western, much.

[Edwardian]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Curiously, that livery diagram appears to show no gold lining-out of the beading around the door eves panel - which is contrary to the restored carriages at Didcot, where these panels are lined out, though, I think, without the brown line - presumably because the ventilator gets in the way. I think @Penrhos1920 follows that diagram in his livery animation. However, looking closely at the period photographs he posts, I am convinced that Didcot is right and the beading round these panels does have the gold lining.

 

What a morass. Glad I'm not modelling the Great Western, much.

 

Indeed, the whole subject of pre-Grouping replete with uncertainties that confound those who crave for certainty or wish to reduce matters to simple emphatic statements!

 

The point you raise is not mentioned in the text, but as to the provenance of the drawig;

 

"The diagram illustrated us based in an official Swindon drawing, produced in 1952 for a film company, to shew painting and lining details as they existing in 1902 ... There has been some criticism of this drawing as photographs are instanced to indicate that the gold lines on the mouldings appear on the edges of the mouldings and seemingly there is no black beyond the edge as the drawing shews. As G.W.R. beadings are 3/8" thick the black part could well be vertical to the coach side and casual examination would shew the gold on the edges of the horizontal part".

 

Somehow I doubt film company in question was Ealing Studios!

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

38 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

There has been some criticism of this drawing as photographs are instanced to indicate that the gold lines on the mouldings appear on the edges of the mouldings and seemingly there is no black beyond the edge as the drawing shews. As G.W.R. beadings are 3/8" thick the black part could well be vertical to the coach side and casual examination would shew the gold on the edges of the horizontal part

 

The black outside (or inside?) the gold line is not incredible, nor is it's not being distinguishable. The ⁵⁄₁₆" wide gold line on Midland beading was bordered by a ⅛" vermillion line on both sides, helping it to stand out against the black on the panel beading and the crimson lake body colour; the black line would provide similar definition here against the cream or brown body colour.

 

Although the beading is ⅜" thick, it has a quarter-curve at the edges. The black line, if it exists, would be at about 45° to the body side.

 

It would be really useful to have some good close-ups of the lining applied to the Didcot carriages and to understand the sources of information they are using.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It would be really useful to have some good close-ups of the lining applied to the Didcot carriages and to understand the sources of information they are using.

 

Better plan a trip then!

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Better plan a trip then!

 

They say:

 

"Following the Government's announcement of the ‘roadmap’ out of lockdown, we will stage Open Air Steam Days at Weekends and Wednesdays from the 14 April. We will be using a train of vintage carriages with individual compartments."

 

Looks like I'm on.

[Edwardian]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

They say:

 

"Following the Government's announcement of the ‘roadmap’ out of lockdown, we will stage Open Air Steam Days at Weekends and Wednesdays from the 14 April. We will be using a train of vintage carriages with individual compartments."

 

Looks like I'm on.

 

Someone should explain to Boris the difference between a road map

 

 

And a timetable

 

[Compound2632]

I think what they're thinking of may be the 17th/18th-century strip maps giving you the post-houses along a particular route, so that distance gives time, or vice versa - just as I might say, "I'm only three-quarters of an hour from the Didcot Railway Centre". After all, it's the time to make the journey rather than the distance that is usually of greatest importance.

 

On the other hand, as it's "professional management" babble, probably not.

 

Nice timetables. Not so keen on the map. I mean, "Snodland"?

 

(Apologies in advance to any readers from the Land of Snod.)

Edited April 16, 2021 by Compound2632

[Oldddudders]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Nice timetables. Not so keen on the map. I mean, "Snodland"?

 

(Apologies in advance to any readers from the Land of Snod.)

Have a care, Sir. I once knew a chap who lodged in the station house at Snodland. OTOH, my last house in Blighty was pretty much in the centre of this map, on the A262, under the 'u' of Flishinghurst. Designed (1887) by Sir Mervyn McCartney, who went on to do restorative work on St Paul's. 

[Edwardian]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Not so keen on the map. I mean, "Snodland"?

 

 

 

Whole route of the K&ESR on there.

 

Philistine!

[Budgie]

A bit to the north-east of Tonbridge, East Peckham is a bit of a way from Peckham Rye. 

[Oldddudders]

3 minutes ago, Budgie said:

A bit to the north-east of Tonbridge, East Peckham is a bit of a way from Peckham Rye. 

The Regional Civil Engineer had a tip there, for spent ballast.