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Hattons Dave

'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

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9 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The LNWR did that with some of their early 26ft six wheel straight sided milk vans. It was never done with any of the later 32' or 30' 1" six wheelers.  The LNWR four wheel coaches were 28', perhaps the higher weight of the longer coaches might not have been regarded as suitable for four wheel underframes.

 

Pre-group companies seemed to limit long wheelbase two axle vehicles to specialist wagons such as machinery trucks. Perhaps they didn't think that 20ft or 22ft wheelbase suited "passenger" vehicles.

 

I was talking about the models but in terms of real-life examples, a number of the four-wheelers that ended-up on the Isle of Wight in SR days had started life as six-wheelers on the mainland.  Without looking it up I'm afraid I've no idea how long the wheelbase was.

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4 hours ago, truffy said:

When is the photo dated, please?

 

No date is mentioned. If it helps, the loco is in the fully lined-out SECR livery, and the coaches are in very clean SECR livery. So I expect the date is in the early 1900s. 

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18 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

 

Hello Compound2632,

 

We certainly have, they've been adjusted as you previously suggested.

 

 

Hi Andy,

 

We're not looking at 4-wheel full brakes for the time being, just the 6-wheelers for now.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

Thanks Dave and good luck with the project.

 

Andy. 

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Just a observation, but there are no 2nd Class compartments for the SECR carriages. Will these be provided for?

 

Dana

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1 hour ago, Dana Ashdown said:

Just a observation, but there are no 2nd Class compartments for the SECR carriages. Will these be provided for?

 

Dana

It depends on what period you model. It was abolished by most companies in the early 20th century.

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Second class wasn't abolished until 1956 I believe, Kept for boat trains as boats/ships still had three classes.

 

Although what rickety old carriages would be doing in boat trains is the question....

 

 

The Bachmann birdcages have second class accommodation built from 1912.

 

 

 

Jason

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Third class became second class in 1956 before later becoming standard class. Second class was only retained for boat trains. 

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4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

When did the SECR abolish second class for ordinary services? 

 

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Second class wasn't abolished until 1956 I believe, Kept for boat trains as boats/ships still had three classes.

I'm no expert, and freely admit that I may have missed the point, but the SECR was amalgamated in 1923. And SR certainly ran first and third, not second, for some time (second reintroduced under BR(S)?).

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8 hours ago, Dana Ashdown said:

Just a observation, but there are no 2nd Class compartments for the SECR carriages. Will these be provided for?

 

Dana

 

Yes there are. Look at H4-4C12-401 4 wheel composite (1st/2nd) 2062 in SECR livery

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On 08/11/2019 at 07:40, Hroth said:

 

Given some of the comments that have been posted here, I wonder how close Hattons have been to "like it or lump it" territory!  That they've paid attention to sensible suggestions and managed to hold their tongues is remarkable, and I wish them all the best in this endeavour.

 

 

Quite so.

 

60 pages in and still the thread that keeps on giving :)

 

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8 hours ago, truffy said:

 

I'm no expert, and freely admit that I may have missed the point, but the SECR was amalgamated in 1923. And SR certainly ran first and third, not second, for some time (second reintroduced under BR(S)?).

I can't help with ordinary services, but the SE&CR built their distinctive match-boarded Continental stock in 1921, comprising only First and Second class stock. The SR continued with this design, building another 20 second class only vehicles, but also relenting and adding some 16 Third class vehicles. This stock continued to run on Continental services until around 1934, when the Second class accommodation was reclassified as Third. But Second class still continued as Maunsell built a number of "Non-descript" saloons, which could be labelled as First, Second or Third as the traffic demanded. So second class didn't die on the Southern, although it may have gone into hibernation during the war. I think BR(S) continued with the nondescript idea until the abolition of three classes.

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1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

I can't help with ordinary services, but the SE&CR built their distinctive match-boarded Continental stock in 1921, comprising only First and Second class stock. The SR continued with this design, building another 20 second class only vehicles, but also relenting and adding some 16 Third class vehicles. This stock continued to run on Continental services until around 1934, when the Second class accommodation was reclassified as Third. But Second class still continued as Maunsell built a number of "Non-descript" saloons, which could be labelled as First, Second or Third as the traffic demanded. So second class didn't die on the Southern, although it may have gone into hibernation during the war. I think BR(S) continued with the nondescript idea until the abolition of three classes.

 

Which is why I asked about "ordinary services" - not the boat trains.

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On 10/11/2019 at 06:50, Nick Holliday said:

I can't help with ordinary services, but the SE&CR built their distinctive match-boarded Continental stock in 1921, comprising only First and Second class stock. The SR continued with this design, building another 20 second class only vehicles, but also relenting and adding some 16 Third class vehicles. This stock continued to run on Continental services until around 1934, when the Second class accommodation was reclassified as Third. But Second class still continued as Maunsell built a number of "Non-descript" saloons, which could be labelled as First, Second or Third as the traffic demanded. So second class didn't die on the Southern, although it may have gone into hibernation during the war. I think BR(S) continued with the nondescript idea until the abolition of three classes.

There were also a couple of Maunsell low-window Brake Seconds for the Newhaven Boats and a couple of high-window 1st/2nd Brake Composites which - judging by the date of conversion - were probably for the post war Night Ferry ............ then B.R. built a batch of Open Seconds too - though they became Ist class when 2nd WAS finally abolished ............... but this is getting a long, long way from four an' six wheelers !

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There is a set of J.S. Doubleday photos of these Aston departmental 6-wheelers taken on 4 July 1957 on Mike Musson's Warwickshire Railways website:

 

M284678 - ex-LNWR 30'1" D197 as in @RichardLong's post.

 

DM27528M - mis-identified in the caption, an ex-Midland 29 ft third brake of 1875 - one of 40 built by the Swansea Wagon Co., originally Nos. 1137-1163; built as a 4-wheeler, converted to 6 wheels in the 1880s; converted to brakedown train tool van c. 1898-9.

 

M284609 - another ex-LNWR 30'1" D197 centre luggage composite, but with the quarter-lights and upper panelling replaced with matchboarding in the same style as DM27528M - this indicates that it was converted to a brakedown van post-grouping.

 

The Midland used this style of matchboarding for brakedown tool and mess van conversions from c. 1898; initial conversions were of these 29 ft third brakes and some 29 ft centre-luggage composites of 1874/5 that became riding vans*; subsequently a number of D516 31 ft centre-luggage composites were converted in a similar style as required up to 1922; after the grouping the LMS continued these conversions, using a number of the LNWR 30'1" carriages. I suspect the fully boarded carriage was fitted out as a tool van (note that all the doors have been sealed up with the exception of the luggage compartment doors) and the unconverted carriage was used as a riding van (the doors of the first class compartments have been sealed up, some partitions removed and, I suspect, longitudinal bench seating installed). 

 

*There is a photograph of one of these, LMS 7304, allocated to Bedford Motive Power Section, in R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 2 (OPC, 1980) plate 389. This also has the white cross at the right hand end, as DM27528M, which I presumes means the vehicle carries some first aid equipment. The same work has photos of Midland 31 ft 5-compartment thirds to D493 converted to ballast brakes in a similar fashion [plates 387 and 388]. The 29 ft carriage conversions can be seen in the background in numerous Midland division shed photos in C. Hawkins & G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981).

 

[R. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Carriages Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 1986) and my own research.]

Edited by Compound2632
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