Dcc train control with anologue turnout control question.

[Jeepy]

Hi folks, 

 

This may be a very basic question to some I think but I'm new to DCC so here goes!.... All I want to use DCC for is train control but would like to control turnouts, signals etc by the anologue method of a controller/transformer supplying power via switches to slow action turnout motors for turnouts and possibly servos for semaphore signals, in the case of turnout control I was considering either Tortoise or cobalt which I understand have built in switches for changing frog polarity so would the turnout motor need to be the digital type or anologue type please? 

I guess what I'm trying to get my head around is although the motor will be moving the turnout under anologue power will the motor still cope with changing the frog polarity on DCC supplied track/rails therefore also the frog? For instance in the case of cobalts there is an anologue version (classic) or a digital version or is that only appertaining to the method of moving the switch blades? Thanks ever so much! 

 

Best wishes, 

 

Jim. 

[Gordon A]

The short answer is yes. I would use a servo linked to a micro switch for DC point operation with an interface for DC control of servos. There are several manufacturers who make these units.

 

Tortoise or Cobalt can switch points using DC with out any interface but can cost more than  the servo option.

 

Gordon

[Jeepy]

12 minutes ago, Gordon A said:

The short answer is yes. I would use a servo linked to a micro switch for DC point operation with an interface for DC control of servos. There are several manufacturers who make these units.

 

Tortoise or Cobalt can switch points using DC with out any interface but can cost more than  the servo option.

 

Gordon

Ahh! Thank you! That sounds like another option to consider...... Especially as I would like to control signals via servos, perhaps even from the same 'interface' which would simplify things somewhat as well as being less costly, hmmmm! 

That's given me something to think about, 

Best wishes, 

Jim

[Pete the Elaner]

Operating points by DCC is a completely separate choice from driving trains with it. There are good reasons for using it & not using it.

Switching frog polarity is a completely different circuit to operating the point itself.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Hi Jim

The digital “ip” version of the Cobalt motors are fitted with an onboard accessory decoder for use with DCC control of the turnouts.

They can also be switched via direct wiring to switches or buttons.

If you’re not going to use DCC to operate the turnouts, nor plan to do so at some later stage, don’t buy the decoder fitted motors, as it would be a waste of both money and the unused electronics.

 

Note that DCC control of turnouts and signals can also be done via a switch panel, or mimic panel with switches or buttons, or even a mini lever frame assembly.

If there are a large number of turnouts, the DCC option would save a considerable amount of wiring, but would cost more for that convenience.

Frog switching is usually isolated from the motor’s power supply.

[Jeepy]

23 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Operating points by DCC is a completely separate choice from driving trains with it. There are good reasons for using it & not using it.

Switching frog polarity is a completely different circuit to operating the point itself.

Excellent! Thank you

 

Best wishes 

 

Jim. 

[Jeepy]

40 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Hi Jim

The digital “ip” version of the Cobalt motors are fitted with an onboard accessory decoder for use with DCC control of the turnouts.

They can also be switched via direct wiring to switches or buttons.

If you’re not going to use DCC to operate the turnouts, nor plan to do so at some later stage, don’t buy the decoder fitted motors, as it would be a waste of both money and the unused electronics.

 

Note that DCC control of turnouts and signals can also be done via a switch panel, or mimic panel with switches or buttons, or even a mini lever frame assembly.

If there are a large number of turnouts, the DCC option would save a considerable amount of wiring, but would cost more for that convenience.

Frog switching is usually isolated from the motor’s power supply.

Very useful info, thank you! There will only be about half a dozen turnouts, also a turntable and a small scattering of signals but I would like to keep the available track power purely for train control, no sound though but maybe some coach interior lights, my question has been answered quite thoroughly thank you all........ Although I've got a few more things to consider now! Cost is not a major issue as it's a smallish layout or will be, (traverser and baseboards all built and set up and I have a track plan scribbled out) but I just need to come to a decision about turnout control etc before actually laying track, I've just purchased a NCE Powercab so interesting times ahead for me! 

 

Best wishes, 

 

Jim. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Jeepy
Spelling mistake

[BR60103]

One of our club members built a donut shaped exhibition layout.  After a while they converted to DCC.  He said that at that size it was a mistake to convert the point motors as well.

 

You will probably need a separate power supply for accessories from the DCC track power.

 

You can even stay with finger-poking the Pecos.

 

[Phil S]

In your last reply you mentioned your desire to keep the track power for trains rather than points: if this is because you are thinking that the POWER to operate the points by DCC comes from the DCC bus, then this is not always true.....

Many accessory decoders take there power from a 16Vac or 12-20Vdc  separate power supply , or Optionally, from the DCC. ('Track')

( Historically 16Vac has been 'available' - but as old-fashioned transformers are phased out of use for being inefficient heavy and expensive, and replaced by SMPS DC power supplies, the ability to use  a DC supply is increasingly needed or desirable.....the latest Roco Accessory decoder takes 20Vdc for its power ...or the DCC track signal ...which, of course it uses for control, anyway. )

 

Alternatively, for solenoid type motors, CDU decoders charge themselves over a few seconds from the (track DCC (or other) ) supply which will not impact greatly on the provision of power to trains.   

Note that many 'modern' accessory devices are ambivalent to ac or DC as they rectify the incoming supply to DC for the internal electronics.

An exception I have is the Lens LS150 6 output accessory decoder which DOES require an AC supply ..NOT DC, to operate.

 

As having been mentioned ... Once your points and other accessories are controlled via DCC, then you have much more freedom is how and where you control your railway ..... Ranging from corded or wireless handheld controllers, smart phones or tablets, and / or large flat panel track mimic display....which can ALL show the current setting of the point(s) at no further cost.      .( Whilst dynamically showing the occupancy of trains on sections DOES require extra hardware across the whole layout, and therefore expenditure ...)

 

These 'soft' displays .. Ranging from the Multimaus's simple L/R graphic for each accessory, through  small I individual displays on phones or tablets to the communal large screen displays ( which can be repeated for any viewers. ). .....touch screen, mouse or switch .... All being examples of prototype practice.    ....but all these options start with integrating the points and other accessories into the single DCC system.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Phil S

[Oldddudders]

My DCC layout has a few points that have optional DCC control - they can also be operated by simple switches on the fascia; a number of points motor-operated independently of DCC;  and plenty of unpowered points. Mix and match as you will, DCC is very flexible.

[Jeepy]

39 minutes ago, Phil S said:

In your last reply you mentioned your desire to keep the track power for trains rather than points: if this is because you are thinking that the POWER to operate the points by DCC comes from the DCC bus, then this is not always true.....

Many accessory decoders take there power from a 16Vac or 12-20Vdc  separate power supply , or Optionally, from the DCC. ('Track')

( Historically 16Vac has been 'available' - but as old-fashioned transformers are phased out of use for being inefficient heavy and expensive, and replaced by SMPS DC power supplies, the ability to use  a DC supply is increasingly needed or desirable.....the latest Roco Accessory decoder takes 20Vdc for its power ...or the DCC track signal ...which, of course it uses for control, anyway. )

 

Alternatively, for solenoid type motors, CDU decoders charge themselves over a few seconds from the (track DCC (or other) ) supply which will not impact greatly on the provision of power to trains.   

Note that many 'modern' accessory devices are ambivalent to ac or DC as they rectify the incoming supply to DC for the internal electronics.

An exception I have is the Lens LS150 6 output accessory decoder which DOES require an AC supply ..NOT DC, to operate.

 

As having been mentioned ... Once your points and other accessories are controlled via DCC, then you have much more freedom is how and where you control your railway ..... Ranging from corded or wireless handheld controllers, smart phones or tablets, and / or large flat panel track mimic display....which can ALL show the current setting of the point(s) at no further cost.      .( Whilst dynamically showing the occupancy of trains on sections DOES require extra hardware across the whole layout, and therefore expenditure ...)

 

These 'soft' displays .. Ranging from the Multimaus's simple L/R graphic for each accessory, through  small I individual displays on phones or tablets to the communal large screen displays ( which can be repeated for any viewers. ). .....touch screen, mouse or switch .... All being examples of prototype practice.    ....but all these options start with integrating the points and other accessories into the single DCC system.

That's interesting,  thanks for your input Phil, (Excuse the pun!) Just a quick question to you, when you say an 'SMPS' power supply for DC what is that? Thanks,

 

Best wishes, 

 

Jim.

[RAF96]

JIm

SMPS - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply

 

[Gordon A]

I have a shunting layout where the points are DCC controlled. My reason for doing this was to us the route selection option that is available with DCC. It takes a bit of care to set up, When sorted you only need to select Route 3 for example then all the points will set themselves to the correct position for a route from B to Z, if you get my drift.

If you like operating signal box style levers or switches then DC is the way I would go.

 

Gordon A

[Jeepy]

41 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

JIm

SMPS - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply

 

Ahh! That explains that then, smashing! Thank you! 

[Jeepy]

2 minutes ago, Gordon A said:

I have a shunting layout where the points are DCC controlled. My reason for doing this was to us the route selection option that is available with DCC. It takes a bit of care to set up, When sorted you only need to select Route 3 for example then all the points will set themselves to the correct position for a route from B to Z, if you get my drift.

If you like operating signal box style levers or switches then DC is the way I would go.

 

Gordon A

Interesting! Yes I like the idea of operating turnouts and signals from a track diagram panel similar to what you would see in a power signal box, either that or operating miniature levers appeals to me, i don't really fancy having to keep punching codes into the DCC unit personally although this suits some people, all down to personal preference of course, I have even considered wire in tube with some sort of add on method of changing frog polarity but the jury is still out while I gather and digest all the great information you're all putting forward, thank you! 

 

Best wishes,

 

Jim.

[ColinK]

If you go down the route (ha ha) of wire in tube (or bike spoke, piano wire or bent bit of old rail) for changing the points, frog juicers will look after the frog polarity with no hassle for you.

[Ron Ron Ron]

4 hours ago, Gordon A said:

......If you like operating signal box style levers or switches then DC is the way I would go.

Why? That’s not necessarily true.

Both signal box style levers or lever frames...and switches or buttons (mimic panel layout or not) , can equally be used to operate points, routes and signals via DCC. 
 

 

3 hours ago, Jeepy said:

Interesting! Yes I like the idea of operating turnouts and signals from a track diagram panel similar to what you would see in a power signal box, either that or operating miniature levers appeals to me, i don't really fancy having to keep punching codes into the DCC unit personally although this suits some people......

You are not restricted to “punching codes” to operate turnouts and signals by DCC.

You can have a track diagram with switches or button and LED indicator lights, if you want and it can all be operated under DCC.

Same with a mini signal box lever set-up, which can also be used to operate turnouts and signals by DCC.

There’s no magic in this, as it’s all available to buy off the shelf today.

 
In such an arrangement, flicking a switch, pressing a button, or pulling a mini-lever, has the immediate effect of sending the DCC signal to the desired turnout or signal motor/drive.

You can even adopt this method of DCC control of turnouts and signals on a layout where the running of the trains is under DC.

That’s right, DC control of trains and DCC control of the turnouts and signals !

That option might suit someone who wishes to stay with DC, for whatever reason, but doesn’t want the complication of a relatively massive wiring job, to operate turnouts and signals.

It might not be worth pursuing this avenue for a handful of turnouts and signals, but imagine 10, 20, 30 or more turnouts and signals being controlled from a mimic track diagram panel, but with only a single pair of wires connecting that panel to the layout.

 

Ron

Edited October 29, 2019 by Ron Ron Ron

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

You are not restricted to “punching codes” to operate turnouts and signals by DCC.

You can have a track diagram with switches or button and LED indicator lights, if you want and it can all be operated under DCC.

Same with a mini signal box lever set-up, which can also be to operate turnouts and signals by DCC.

There’s no magic in this, as it’s all available to buy off the shelf today.

 

This opens up the possibility of multiple control panels. Maybe 1 at each end of a layout so you can operate all of it from either end.

Or maybe 1 on a PC & another on a dedicated panel?

The control codes are always there if either of these should go wrong (no idea why they should) then you could still operate them from a handset if you really needed to.

This would involve a huge amount of work with hard-wired panels, but adding another panel with DCC is a much smaller task.

[johnb]

On my small 3rd rail exhibition layout, I use DCC for control of the track and Tortoise motor (11 in total) on 12v DC from switches. The two power supplies are completely independent. I've not had any issues.

The layout will be at the Royston club show on 16th November, if you are around I'll be happy to chat.

 

John

[Phil S]

Some examples from our layouts and over the years showing how Mimic Displays and Touch Screens (or mice or trackballs in the past) can make operation easy.  The display content can be very simple and / or grow to show as much as you desire....

The first is half-a-screen from a Android Tablet [or iPad based at the other end] (apologies for the poor image quality) uisng the Z21 App for our 3 station, 17m long, linear G Scale layout at Hollycombe - (see photo of layout courtesy of C.Thirlwall).  It is difficult to see the points at the far end of the layout - and we uncouple and run round totally hands free - operating from anywhere: DCC controls the points (and any other accessories) simply by tapping the point on the screen. We used to use the  wireless multimauses to change the points - and reverted to that when the batteries went flat in the tablet 8-(

The diagram updates and the point changes.  [We do not use actual detection other than by EAR and 'seeing movement' - this is a model, not a life threatening real life situation]

The uncouplers in the centre of the layout  (the shunting puzzlepart) are remote controlled - but at either end are simply sprung ramps - the icons are shown as reminders of where they are, and have been given a 'dummy' address. 

We COULD split the screen to include the throttle, or page between stations or zoom into an overall view, as we wish.

The next illustration is a composite image from Rocomotion (the cutdown RR_Co Traincontroller) with a background  bitmap and live front graphic showing points and routes set [ This version of the layout does not yet have the train detection installed ]

The layout has 2 levels - and 360 viewing:  Molndal {Sweden] and Hell [Norway]  are on the top level, along with H0e and H0m narrow gauge systems identified with a different colour wash.  The connecting Helix to the mid- and lower- levels uses a GREEN colour, and routes are preset in 1/4s  in and out of the stations / loops - but all points can be controlled indivually for non-preset paths.  The 5.4m x 1.5m layout is now set up in our garage, and I have a 12" touch screen to hang on each side frame as well as using wireless Multimauses.  Previously a 24" touch screen and passive large flat display have been used to show visitors - rather heavy to transport !   Modern LED screens are lightweight !!

The Vector drawing of Beechingless Barnstaple - North Devon is in BBC BASIC as an alternative to its Rocomotion version. The vector version is zoomable to any desired station. Designed for the 24" touch screen and multiple large LED monitors visible across the loft = with  (corded and) wireless Multimauses able ot operate everything if not adjacent to the touch screen. The WHITE boxes match the Roco feedback module inputs.

BY CONTRAST this is its predeccessor Zero-1 Micromimic (2m long) showing the previous version of the layout:  Operated by a remoted Zero-1 Master keyboard, and the remote throttle from Hornby.  Lightpen+Pre-set routes were never released, although intended.

How times have changed: The white tracks are manually cut self-adhesive white paper that Hornby provided.  LEDs were mostly my own, and 4 modules per 'panel frame'.

A HARDWARE PANEL like this is much harder to alter if any modifications to the layout take place .... but nothing like as hard as if the points themselves were hardwired !!!!

 

All the points and accessories are dcc controlled, and 'locally wired'  in clusters of 1, 2,4 or 6 depending on the modules used.  Many use Digital Point motors from Roco or Veissman.

Wiring cannot get simpler - than connecting to the nearest part of the Accessory Bus.

 

The FEEDBACK stage - for which I am using Optical Detection - so as not to disturb a working dcc system ! is still 'mid-installation' on this layout because it was tested on the predecessor of our existing Skandi layout and only became available again when that was dismantled.  That involves a feedback bus cable plugged between modules which 'concentrate' the outputs of ... in my case, 8 optical detectors. I also have MERG RFid readers - which again got diverted for testing to a different layout...  As I do not plan to 'automate' running the layout - only use 'computer assistance' - I am primarily interested in the detection of trains, and the RFid will separately identify at the key locations.

Optical feedback via Digikeijs modules is due to be added to this version of 'Skandi'....

'Castle in the Clouds' on our Scandinavian Layout --- castle inherited from predeccessor layout and covers helix.... which makes it difficult to see or access .... so replaced by 'sink holes' which have become very 'popular' / in the news.   DeCruicus pumping station near Amsterdam drains the sink hole and stops the city's campsites flooding ( except when the pumps fail )  

12" touch panels attach to frame just beyond helix - by the Budd railcar at the front.   Lower levels of layout provide running distance, stock storage, and scenery for shorter or seated persions. Continuous running and rotational direction change is available via the Helix.

25cm gap between main levels ( originally 20cm, but changed after complaints from taller adults at its first show. )   Aluminium Frame with XPS foam boards - can be lifted by 2people ( with no stock on the layout) or stacked on a 3m long  'tea trolley' into the van.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Phil S

[dasatcopthorne]

The Megapoints Servo control board does Points and semaphores together.

 

Dave

[dasatcopthorne]

The Megapoints Servo control board does Points and semaphores together.

 

Dave

[Dominion]

On the OP's original question, yes you can do what you describe.

I have old cobalts, cobalt IPs and cobalt digital IPs and solenoids on my layout all co-existing happily.

Some of my turnouts are controllable from a DCC input, either from entering an accessory command on my NCE controller but more often from push buttons on an NCE mini-panel.

However these turnouts and all the other turnouts are also operable from analogue inputs.

Also yes the switched power outputs on my cobalts are completely independent from the control input circuit, so there is no problem driving the switch machine in an analogue way and running DCC track power through the separate in-built switches for frog power. 

 

Though not what you are asking, interestingly you can also do the opposite, i.e. have DC track power for the frog through the switch and DCC point motor control. That sounds a bit strange but I have one track loop that I have on a separate power bus that I can switch to DC sometimes for running in locos and for running locos I may never get around to chipping. Where that track loop runs through my scenic section over turnouts with DCC controlled slow acting point motors the track power at that time is DC and it still works fine.

 

Good luck with your project. Tom

 

[Jeepy]

2 hours ago, dasatcopthorne said:

The Megapoints Servo control board does Points and semaphores together.

 

Dave

Thanks Dave, 

 

Best wishes 

 

Jim. 

 

2 hours ago, dasatcopthorne said:

The Megapoints Servo control board does Points and semaphores together.

 

Dave

Thanks again Dave! Lol! 

[Jeepy]

1 hour ago, Dominion said:

On the OP's original question, yes you can do what you describe.

I have old cobalts, cobalt IPs and cobalt digital IPs and solenoids on my layout all co-existing happily.

Some of my turnouts are controllable from a DCC input, either from entering an accessory command on my NCE controller but more often from push buttons on an NCE mini-panel.

However these turnouts and all the other turnouts are also operable from analogue inputs.

Also yes the switched power outputs on my cobalts are completely independent from the control input circuit, so there is no problem driving the switch machine in an analogue way and running DCC track power through the separate in-built switches for frog power. 

 

Though not what you are asking, interestingly you can also do the opposite, i.e. have DC track power for the frog through the switch and DCC point motor control. That sounds a bit strange but I have one track loop that I have on a separate power bus that I can switch to DC sometimes for running in locos and for running locos I may never get around to chipping. Where that track loop runs through my scenic section over turnouts with DCC controlled slow acting point motors the track power at that time is DC and it still works fine.

 

Good luck with your project. Tom

 

Wow! That's all good to know.... A whole new world is opening up to me! , thanks Tom. 

 

Best wishes 

 

Jim.