1970's western region coach formations/routes/diagrams help required

[Mark Saunders]

Another source if any still exist are the seat reservation diagrams as they should show the booked formation!

 

Mark Saunders

[The Johnster]

Re prefixes and suffixes to coaching stock numbers, the original BR setup was that the coaches would retain their big 4 running numbers prefixed by the regional prefix that they were allocated to, M for LMR, E for ER, S for Southern Region, SC for Scottish, W for Western, and NE for North Eastern.  The North Eastern Region was later absorbed into the Eastern.  As the big four coaches tended to remain allocated to the region corresponding to their original railway, the numbers available were adequate, with only the Scottish Region likely to run into problems with duplicate numbers.

 

When the BR mk1 coaches came into service in 1950, this method of the prefix denoting the region the coach was allocated to was continued but there were inevitably going to be number duplications within regions, so the system was amended.  Big 4 designed vehicles were given a suffix, the letters denoting the region that was responsible for maintaining the coaches, which was of course the one corresponding to the company that designed the coach and had the drawings.  Thus W 9135 E was allocated to the WR but responsibility for maintaining it was vested in the ER.

 

Many Bulleid, Thompson, Stanier, and Hawksworth designed passenger rated vehicles were built and continued to be built for some time after nationalisation, as were some Collett designed Siphon Gs and Maunsell designed PMVs.  These were numbered with prefixes appropriate to the region they were allocated to until the appearances of the first mk1s in 1950, and with the maintenance region suffix afterwards.  

 

By and large, of course, pre mk1 designs tended to have the same suffix as prefix, W XXXX W, but the Scottish and North Eastern Regions would have the likes of SC XXXX E, or NE XXXX M.

[Philou]

@FloodIn fairness to the info on Flicker there was a ? after the date 1977 - therefore mystery resolved - 1976 it is. Is it therefore the prototype of the Hornby version?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Flood]

10 minutes ago, Philou said:

@FloodIn fairness to the info on Flicker there was a ? after the date 1977 - therefore mystery resolved - 1976 it is. Is it therefore the prototype of the Hornby version?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Fair comment, I should have looked at the photo on Flickr first before commenting. The Hornby model is as per the prototype before some 1950s alterations. Some of the windows in the kitchen area certainly changed as there has been a thread regarding this on RMweb before but there wasn't major differences so you may wish to leave well alone.

[Flood]

Here's a link to other threads:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/47593-gresley-buffet/&do=findComment&comment=531363

[The Stationmaster]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Re prefixes and suffixes to coaching stock numbers, the original BR setup was that the coaches would retain their big 4 running numbers prefixed by the regional prefix that they were allocated to, M for LMR, E for ER, S for Southern Region, SC for Scottish, W for Western, and NE for North Eastern.  The North Eastern Region was later absorbed into the Eastern.  As the big four coaches tended to remain allocated to the region corresponding to their original railway, the numbers available were adequate, with only the Scottish Region likely to run into problems with duplicate numbers.

 

 

Let's try and get it right. The 'NE' (and 'GE') prefixes were used on BR standard stock (which definitely included some EMUs on the GE) and did not appear until the very late 1950s or early 1960s - I can't remember teh exact day but it was reported contemporaneously in 'Trains Illustrated'.  Until then all Eastern and North Eastern Region stock was prefixed 'E'.

 

Robert CWP can probably tell us the exact date when this started.

[robertcwp]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Let's try and get it right. The 'NE' (and 'GE') prefixes were used on BR standard stock (which definitely included some EMUs on the GE) and did not appear until the very late 1950s or early 1960s - I can't remember teh exact day but it was reported contemporaneously in 'Trains Illustrated'.  Until then all Eastern and North Eastern Region stock was prefixed 'E'.

 

Robert CWP can probably tell us the exact date when this started.

I can't give an exact date but it seems to have been an early 1960s thing on the GE - take the Clacton units for example - if I recall correctly their carriage numbers had GE prefixes.

 

For the NER, it might have dated from when the merger with the ER was being proposed. NE prefixes were commonplace in the mid-1960s, including on repaints into blue/grey.

[robertcwp]

Getting back to the original question, there are a couple of challenges when modelling early to mid-1970s Paddington-West of England trains. One is the non-availability of a Mark I restaurant buffet (RB) in 00, apart from the old Mainline one. Another is the lack of a Mark 2c brake second open. Several of the Plymouth/Penzance trains had two BSOs coupled together in the Penzance section and an RB in the Plymouth portion. Paignton trains are slightly easier as they generally did not have a BSO. The Cornish Riviera/Golden Hind sets from May 1972 also did not have any BSOs but there was a period when the catering was a kitchen buffet (RKB) - a type not available RTR. There was still plenty of Mark I stock too, especially on the local and inter-regional trains. A full set of the WR carriage working books from the period is available via my coaching stock group - link below. 

 

PS - Mark 2d/e/f air-condition stock did not work regularly in Devon and Cornwall until 1976, although some sets appeared on Summer weekends prior to that time. The air-con stock only launched on the WR in late 1972 on Paddington-Bristol and then South Wales services.

Edited November 10, 2019 by robertcwp

[samdeacs07]

On 08/11/2019 at 20:34, Davexoc said:

Early 70s is predominently Mk1 and Mk2bs for WR services in the west country. WR seems to have received mainly Mk2Es from 72-73 which as has been pointed out would have been used on Bristol and S Wales sevices at first, so would rarely have appeared that far south west.

NE/SW service could throw up other early pressure ventilated Mk2s, the earliest of which could appear with Mk1s as they were vacuum brake fitted.

As a spotting guide, a MK1 has a solebar, whereas a Mk2 doesn't, so they do stand out when looking at photos.

Having holiday'd around Dawlish Warren in the mid 70s, I recall seeing a procession of 45/6/7,50s hauling Mk1s and early Mk2s, sorry can't provide formations though. IIRC the WR allocated Gresley buffet was still around in that era.

 

Thank you

[samdeacs07]

On 09/11/2019 at 01:17, Flood said:

For the Penzance services they were Mk1 (with some vacuum braked Mk2 TSOs) up to 1972, Mk2a and Mk2b TSOs and FKs with Mk2c BSOs from 1972 to early 1976 (BG instead of the BSOs on the Paigntons), a swap in the summer of 1976 so the BGs went on the Penzance workings (and the BSOs went to the Paigntons) and from October 1976 Mk2e and Mk2f FO and TSO stock until the HSTs took over in force from May 1980.

 

Sample 1971-72 workings

08.05 Penzance - Paddington Mk1/Mk2 vacuum braked stock

Loco CK, FK, 2 BSK, SK, TSO, SK* from Penzance. BCK, RUO, RB, CK added at Plymouth to give:

Loco BCK, RUO, RB, 2 CK, FK, 2 BSK, SK, TSO, SK*

* = summer only

The Penzance portion is very easy to model from the available Bachmann stock. Strictly speaking the Mainline RB is the best catering car to use.

 

10.00 Penzance - Bradford Mk1 vacuum braked stock (rake is that listed from 4 October 1971)

Loco CK, TSO, CK, SK, 2 BSK, 2 SK from Penzance. SK, RUO, RB added at Plymouth to give:

Loco SK, RUO, RB, CK, TSO, CK, SK, 2 BSK, 2 SK

Again, the Penzance portion is very easy to model from the available Bachmann stock. Likewise the Mainline RB is the best catering car to use.

 

10.55 Penzance - Paddington (Cornish Riviera), using Mk2 air braked stock from November 1971

Loco TSO, FK, 2 BSO, TSO from Penzance. BFK, TSO, FO*, RB added at Plymouth to give:

Loco BFK, TSO, FO*, RB, TSO, FK, 2 BSO, TSO

(* = Mk1 with air brakes)

The whole train is just possible from the available Bachmann stock. The Penzance portion is a bit of a compromise though the Western Region had Mk2a BSO coaches W9434-9438 until March/April 1973. Again, the Mainline RB is the best catering car to use.

 

In reality it is unlikely that 2 x Mk2a BSO coaches would have been used as the Western Region had far more Mk2c BSO coaches but

1. You can't buy a ready to run Mk2c BSO and

2. it is your layout.

 

Bachmann references

Mk1 CK 39-125

Mk1 SK 39-025

Mk1 FK 39-150

Mk1 TSO 39-050

Mk1 BCK 39-225

Mk1 RUO 39-250

Mk1 BSK 39-075

 

Mk1 FO (air braked) Hornby R4778

The Mainline RB is still widely available but a Bachmann 39-100 Restaurant Unclassified (RU) could be used instead.

 

Mk2a FK 39-340 or 39-341

Mk2a TSO 39-360 or 39-361

Mk2a BSO 39-380 or 39-381

Mk2a BFK 39-410 or 39-411

 

Coaches ending 39-xx0 do not carry Inter-City, those ending 39-xx1 carry Inter-City. This was added to Mk2a stock from November 1970.

 

Edit:

Passenger locos:

Warships mainly on workings to/from Birmingham (from Penzance to Bristol) until their demise in late 1972.

Westerns on all services through to their demise in Feb 1977.

Class 50s on mainly Paddington workings from early 1974 but some Birmingham services as required.

Class 47s from 1969 on occasional Paddington and Birmingham services, gradually increasing to approx 1/3 of all workings as the Westerns were run down.

Class 45s used on services to/from Birmingham increasingly from 1972 onwards. Class 46 allocated to the Western so used as required in Cornwall from 1972 onwards.

 

Hope all this is of use.

This is fantastic information, exactly what I was after, thank you

[samdeacs07]

Thank you too all who have responded to this post.

My next question is, as I don't trust Wikipedia, what year did TOPS come in and what year did route identifying numbers get replaced with 0000.

Thank you in advance

[Flood]

TOPS Class defined renumbering started with Class 76 76050 in November 1971 with more Class 76s, plus the majority of Class 83s and Class 84s being done in 1972. Small amounts of renumbering continued throughout 1973, mainly Class 45s and Class 86s going through works to be designated 45/0 or 45/1 and 86/0 or 86/2. Renumbering of other classes going through works increased from October 1973 with large scale renumbering occurring from February 1974 to April 1974 when depots as well as main works replaced the old numbers.

 

Train descriptions in headcode boxes should have been replaced with 0000 from 1st January 1976. Some Deltics already had dots before then and I have seen a number of photos in the Summer of 1976 with individual drivers still wishing to display the correct headcode or photos of a loco with the headcode left from a previous service (47221 with train 4M05 at Par but carrying 1A55):

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Flood

[samdeacs07]

7 hours ago, Flood said:

TOPS renumbering started with Class 76 76050 in November 1971 with more Class 76s, plus the majority of Class 83s and Class 84s being done in 1972. Small amounts of renumbering continued throughout 1973, mainly Class 45s and Class 86s going through works to be designated 45/0 or 45/1 and 86/0 or 86/2. Renumbering of other classes going through works increased from October 1973 with large scale renumbering occurring from February 1974 to April 1974 when depots as well as main works replaced the old numbers.

 

Train descriptions in headcode boxes should have been replaced with 0000 from 1st January 1976. Some Deltics already had dots before then and I have seen a number of photos in the Summer of 1976 with individual drivers still wishing to display the correct headcode or photos of a loco with the headcode left from a previous service (47221 with train 4M05 at Par but carrying 1A55):

 

Thank you @Flood, your knowledge is excellent and I believe the thread I mentioned earlier in this topic was answered by yourself to which I thank you again.

So for me to run locos, some with and some without TOPS is 'ok' especially if I use rule 1 plus running with incorrect or 0000 headcode is acceptable.

My rule one also comes into play as one of my favourite locos is the class 22 so running these with class 50 wouldn't have happened but as I said, rule one!

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Except of course it wasn't 'TOPS renumbering' per se as TOPS didn't appear until 1973 and in any case could accept loco numbers in any format as long as they had no more than 4 digits (the original C SP program) - it had to be reprogrammed to accept the new BR loco numbering system.

[Phil Bullock]

On 09/11/2019 at 21:40, Philou said:

As a PS, is this the same one as the Hornby R4468?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

From this side pretty well yes

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/263766/hornby_r4468_ln03_br_gresley_ex_lner_buffet_car_in_br_blue_grey_pre_owned_like_new/stockdetail.aspx

 

But from the other side.... Hmmm......

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Hornby+r4468&safe=strict&rlz=1C1GCEB_enGB850GB850&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhgv6ttuTlAhX3QkEAHSe9C0cQ_AUIFCgD&biw=1920&bih=965#imgrc=RfdmLr0VjbASfM

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/camperdown/24181021436

 

What Hornby have done is applied blue/grey to their existing Gresley Buffet - those that survived to blue/grey had the white windows re-paneled on the buffet counter side of the vehicle - other detail differences too. we run one on Abbotswood but its only allowed to appear with the corridor side of the vehicle facing the punters.....

 

Also appeared in the Bristol excursion rake in 1976, we had W9135E in the Merchant Venturer rake to Sellafield in May