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PatriotClass

Anybody know this coach?

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Hello,

I am not quite shure whether this is the correct section to post this question...

 

I found in Plymouth at a nice pre owned dealer's shop this 00 coach. It's a Hornby China made model and seems to be an older one.

To create a second push-pull-set I would like to look for a second one.

Does anybody know, how this type of coach, fitted with a driver's cab is called or maybe know the former Hornby number?

 

Thanks 

P_20191114_234226_vHDR_Auto.jpg

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10 minutes ago, PatriotClass said:

Hello,

I am not quite shure whether this is the correct section to post this question...

 

I found in Plymouth at a nice pre owned dealer's shop this 00 coach. It's a Hornby China made model and seems to be an older one.

To create a second push-pull-set I would like to look for a second one.

Does anybody know, how this type of coach, fitted with a driver's cab is called or maybe know the former Hornby number?

 

Thanks 

 

 

 

Its a GWR 'autocoach' - the GWR didn't have 'Push-Pull' trains, they had 'auto trains' This type of coach could have worked singly (with the non driving end facing to the loco), or up to 4 could be coupled together (2 each side of the loco)

 

Have a read of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_Autocoach

 

5915925_063fe711_1024x1024.jpg

 

18534396932_a832e32165_b.jpg

 

Edited by phil-b259
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It is a GWR autocoach (in BR livery from the 1950s). 

 

They were originally made by Airfix, then Mainline and then Dapol before finally the tools passed on to Hornby.

They have not been produced a while but are easy enough to pick up.

 

Bachmann (another make) recently produced another variant of a GWR autocoach which can be found brand new and looks fairly similar (albeit made to much higher standards and detail). 

You could run both push pull sets togethor.

 

Airfix, then mainline, then Dapol and then Hornby do a 14XX loco to go with it. Hattons do a more recent tooling (more detailed) of the 14XX too. While Bachmann have done a push pull 64XX pannier tank in recent years.

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Have just checked my models, I don't have W194W but I do have a W196W in the same colour scheme which is Hornby catalogue number R4100B.

 

If you want something similar but  different you could, for instance, find a maroon and cream version, look for R4187 (W195W) or R4187A (W192W) or, as mentioned above, look for one of the Bachman models.

 

Keith

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The model was originally produced by Airfix back in the 70s and represents an all steel coach (previous designs were wood panelled) to diagram A28 or A30; the model has features of both.  This one is numbered as an A30.  For BR period, some 4575 class small prairies (as produced by Bachmann) were fitted with the auto gear, which was a system of rods and joints which attached at one end to an extension of the regulator linkage beneath the loco cab and similarly beneath linkage to a regulator in the driving cab of the auto coach (they were described as trailers rather than coaches but that's not important).  This is the reason for the 2 trailer from the loco limit as there was play in the connections and insufficient movement after more than 2 couplings.  

 

The 64xx were a development of a previous auto-fitted loco, the 54xx, which had larger driving wheels, and some earlier locos, mostly 2021 class panniers and the 517 class 0-4-2T that the 14xx was developed from, along with some 2-4-0T 'Metro' locos.  The last two survived into the very earliest BR days.

 

In the Plymouth area it was common to see auto trains of 4 coaches with the loco sandwiched in the middle, and the 4575s worked 3 coach 'sandwiches' in South Wales.  The trailer driving cab had a regulator lever, a vacuum brake, and a foot treadle which operated the warning bell which you can see above the right hand cab window.  The fireman therefore had to operate the gear and cutoff on the loco, as well as his normal duties of firing and injecting water into the boiler.  Auto trains are associated with bucolic branch lines but there were busy and tightly timed urban commuter services as well, so he sometimes had his work cut out for himself!  The Bachmann trailer (A38) is not strictly speaking a GW coach, as it was not built until early BR days. and has only carried a GW livery 'incorrectly' on preserved examples, but it is a GW design.

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These stylish Auto coaches had a a driving cab with vacuum brake controls and a regulator handle which was connected to the Loco by a system of rods, which could be detached fairly easily, but which became impossibly stiff if more than two coaches were connected in front or behind the loco.   Other railways had push pull trains which used rather more sophisticated systems of air or vacuum operation.   GW Auto coaches could not be used in push pull mode with any but a couple of Hundred ex GWR locos and No GW locos could operate other companies push pull trains in push pull mode.   The GW Autocoaches were specially designed most if not all GW built ones were open saloons and had retractable steps so passengers could alight from low platforms or the track side.   Other railways used any old tat, non corridor stock etc with holes cut in the end so the driver could peer out.    

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6 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Other railways used any old tat, non corridor stock etc with holes cut in the end.    

 Like an A44 Collett conversion, for example?!

 

To be fair, a BR (W) thing.

Edited by Hal Nail

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7 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

The GW Autocoaches were specially designed most if not all GW built ones were open saloons and had retractable steps so passengers could alight from low platforms or the track side.   Other railways used any old tat, non corridor stock etc with holes cut in the end so the driver could peer out.    

Typical God's Wonderful Railwayac's comment!:)

Apart from the fact that many of their trailers first started life as steam railmotors, the GWR was not above hacking around old coaches to make auto-trailers. The well-known Clifton sets (8 pairs) were converted from low roof stock dating from 1898, basically the old Hornby clerestories with the clerestories removed. Before them, around 1906, six clerestory roofed coaches were converted to trailers, and two four wheel thirds were adapted in 1905 to run with autotrailers.

Meanwhile, on other lines, almost all the LBSCR railmotors were specially designed, most impressively the first Balloon Roofed trailers, whilst the LSWR introduced the purpose-built Gate Stock, as per the Kernow Models' production. Several other lines did build new stock for push-pull use, but they were often variations of their standard designs, so not so obvious as the southern ones, which, like the GWR ones, were somewhat different from the normal stock.

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6 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

Typical God's Wonderful Railwayac's comment!https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png

Apart from the fact that many of their trailers first started life as steam railmotors, the GWR was not above hacking around old coaches to make auto-trailers. The well-known Clifton sets (8 pairs) were converted from low roof stock dating from 1898, basically the old Hornby clerestories with the clerestories removed. Before them, around 1906, six clerestory roofed coaches were converted to trailers, and two four wheel thirds were adapted in 1905 to run with autotrailers.

Meanwhile, on other lines, almost all the LBSCR railmotors were specially designed, most impressively the first Balloon Roofed trailers, whilst the LSWR introduced the purpose-built Gate Stock, as per the Kernow Models' production. Several other lines did build new stock for push-pull use, but they were often variations of their standard designs, so not so obvious as the southern ones, which, like the GWR ones, were somewhat different from the normal stock.

For ‘hacking around old stock’, please amend to ‘ground breaking, innovative use of old stock’, please. Cheers, Dai

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8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The model was originally produced by Airfix back in the 70s and represents an all steel coach (previous designs were wood panelled) to diagram A28 or A30; the model has features of both.  This one is numbered as an A30.  For BR period, some 4575 class small prairies (as produced by Bachmann) were fitted with the auto gear, which was a system of rods and joints which attached at one end to an extension of the regulator linkage beneath the loco cab and similarly beneath linkage to a regulator in the driving cab of the auto coach (they were described as trailers rather than coaches but that's not important).  This is the reason for the 2 trailer from the loco limit as there was play in the connections and insufficient movement after more than 2 couplings.  

 

The 64xx were a development of a previous auto-fitted loco, the 54xx, which had larger driving wheels, and some earlier locos, mostly 2021 class panniers and the 517 class 0-4-2T that the 14xx was developed from, along with some 2-4-0T 'Metro' locos.  The last two survived into the very earliest BR days.

 

In the Plymouth area it was common to see auto trains of 4 coaches with the loco sandwiched in the middle, and the 4575s worked 3 coach 'sandwiches' in South Wales.  The trailer driving cab had a regulator lever, a vacuum brake, and a foot treadle which operated the warning bell which you can see above the right hand cab window.  The fireman therefore had to operate the gear and cutoff on the loco, as well as his normal duties of firing and injecting water into the boiler.  Auto trains are associated with bucolic branch lines but there were busy and tightly timed urban commuter services as well, so he sometimes had his work cut out for himself!  The Bachmann trailer (A38) is not strictly speaking a GW coach, as it was not built until early BR days. and has only carried a GW livery 'incorrectly' on preserved examples, but it is a GW design.

 

Thats very interesting Johnster .  I've always been interested in Auto Coaches but little use for them or experience of them , living up here in Scotland . You mentioned 4 coaches in Plymouth and three in South Wales . Would all those be autocoaches or some have "B" coaches that I quite often see at exhibitions ? In other words what was the formation of these trains ? Is it correct to have two autocoaches , loco and autocoach?  Does the end of the train with 2 autocoaches have them pointing the same way or in opposite directions ? Was this possible with the control linkages ? Just interested in prototypical formations .  I have managed to pick up 2 Bachmann coaches second hand and have both 45XX and 64xx to haul them with .

Edited by Legend

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1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

as per the Kernow Models' production. 

Or not. ;)

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1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

Thats very interesting Johnster .  I've always been interested in Auto Coaches but little use for them or experience of them , living up here in Scotland . You mentioned 4 coaches in Plymouth and three in South Wales . Would all those be autocoaches or some have "B" coaches that I quite often see at exhibitions ? In other words what was the formation of these trains ? Is it correct to have two autocoaches , loco and autocoach?  Does the end of the train with 2 autocoaches have them pointing the same way or in opposite directions ? Was this possible with the control linkages ? Just interested in prototypical formations .  I have managed to pick up 2 Bachmann coaches second hand and have both 45XX and 64xx to haul them with .

The 'B' sets were indivisible two-coach 'units' and not fitted with through linkages for auto-train work - though as mentioned above some similar vehicles were converted in BR days. As far as I know the control rodding underneath a GWR - and similar - auto trailer was handed so even if used as an 'intermediate' it had to be marshalled with its driving end away from the loco.

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I imagine that with two autocoaches coupled together and with 100ft or more of control linkage, that the drivers control gear was either very sloppy or incredibly stiff and unresponsive....

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Two autocoaches was the max on either side of the loco.

 

Here's a 64xx taking water at Saltash:

saltash-autotrain-64xx-small.jpg.a9f49e58cb2995fee3fc1d72fe918be6.jpg

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1 hour ago, ikcdab said:

I imagine that with two autocoaches coupled together and with 100ft or more of control linkage, that the drivers control gear was either very sloppy or incredibly stiff and unresponsive....

Which is why - but don't tell anybody - it was often left unconnected and the fireman did the driving ................ allegedly.

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19 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

Which is why - but don't tell anybody - it was often left unconnected and the fireman did the driving ................ allegedly.

You can’t get away with that. Name names, you cad and bounder! Insert emoji of your choice.

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5 hours ago, Legend said:

 

Thats very interesting Johnster .  I've always been interested in Auto Coaches but little use for them or experience of them , living up here in Scotland . You mentioned 4 coaches in Plymouth and three in South Wales . Would all those be autocoaches or some have "B" coaches that I quite often see at exhibitions ? In other words what was the formation of these trains ? Is it correct to have two autocoaches , loco and autocoach?  Does the end of the train with 2 autocoaches have them pointing the same way or in opposite directions ? Was this possible with the control linkages ? Just interested in prototypical formations .  I have managed to pick up 2 Bachmann coaches second hand and have both 45XX and 64xx to haul them with .

Auto trailers are a subject complex and varied enough to have a book written about them, John Lewis' 'Great Western Auto Trailers', in two volumes.  

 

The mechanical control linkage was 'handed', so the trailers had to be facing cab outwards from the loco.  There was no reason that normal coaches such as B sets could not be marshalled behind the trailers or behind the loco when the auto train was being propelled, which would give a 'sandwich' appearance, but this was rare in practice.  

 

Auto trains developed from steam railmotors, and many of the trailers were rebuilt from them, the loco section being replaced by a guard's compartment.  Some early trailers were built to run with railmotors. Railmotors were a response to competition for suburban commuter traffic in the Edwardian era from new electric tram systems but they were also used to reduce costs on rural branch lines.  The GW had the same problems with railmotors as everyone else; they were underpowered and too slow to keep out of the way on main lines, and if the boilers needed a washout or any other attention was required they had to be replaced by a loco hauling coaches anyway, losing the primary advantage of reducing the turn around time at the terminus (the driver only had to change ends rather than a running around movement and brake continuity test having to be undertaken).

 

So, there was clearly a case for using amortised locos in push pull mode, which is the genesis of the auto train.  These could keep the pace, haul a tail load if needed, and do other work as well.  Formations were up to two 2 trailers with the cabs facing outwards on each side of the loco for busy main line suburban work, varying to a single trailer for branch duties.  The trailers could be hauled by a normal loco but of course had to be run around and brake tested at the terminus like any other stock.  Auto trains could and did on some branch lines haul tail traffic so long as it was 'XP' rated to run with passenger stock, and on the Wallingford branch could haul a 'mixed' train with a goods brake van.  

 

The trailers were mostly, but not entirely, open saloon compartments with a mix of bench and bay seating, which developed into the two saloon arrangement seen on your coach.  The smaller compartment was usually the non-smoker and the trains were one class with the guard selling tickets, and the wide centre door had folding steps with handrails to serve ground or low level halt platforms.  Pre grouping trailers from the Taff Vale and Cardiff railways were converted to the GW system and lasted in service until the 50s; these were also of the open saloon type and the Cardiff Railway trailers looked very similar to GW trailers of the same period.  

 

There were non- gangwayed compartment stock trailers, AFAIK all rebuilds.  The 'Clifton Downs' sets have already been mentioned and worked as 4 coach sandwiches, and some similar Dean compartment stock was also converted, including clerestory types.  Some very early trailers were 4 wheel types but did not last long in service.  Some Collett flat ended brake composites were converted in the late 30s for the Lydney-Sharpness Severn Bridge shuttle, which was joint with the LMS and required first class accommoadation; AFAIK the only GW auto trailers with first class.  These had a new style of cab end with a single rectangular window, generally known as 'cyclops', and this style was repeated on some further conversions of Collett flatender non gangwayed coaches by BR(W) in 1953 in connection with a new South Wales Valleys 'regular interval' timetable.  These were accompanied by auto fitted all thirds without driving cabs or end windows, which retained their non-auto coaching stock numbers.

 

There were also gangwayed trailers, 70' open saloon types for the Plymouth area suburbans.  They were gangwayed within their 2 coach sets, and the 'intermediate' trailers had driving cabs with windows either side of the gangways.  

 

Availability from the trade is the A28/30 you have, and the Bachmann A38.  Kits for the A38, and the A43/4 1953 compartment types, are available from Comet (Wizard Models), and Keyser used to do a cast whitemetal kit for the A31, a panelled type, which occasionally shows up on second hand stalls at shows and on 'Bay; it is a bit basic and very heavy and comes with no interior detail, which is just as well as it would only fall out because there's np floor either...  There's also a 3D print for a diagram A9 (IIRC) bodyshell; this is a flat sided matchboard trailer.

 

 

Your 64xx is suitable for auto work, as is the Hornby 48xx/14xx, a model of which which is also produced as a commission by Hatton's.  A 45xx isn't (there's no reason it can't haul the trailer as a normal coach of course) as none of this class was ever auto-fitted, but the 4575 version with sloping tops to the tanks is, post 1953 at least, though be careful about the numbers as not all members of the class were auto fitted.

 

In BR days, 54xx (similar to 64xx but with larger driving wheels) could also be seen with auto trailers; all members of both classes were auto fitted.  You could also see auto trailers being hauled by non-auto fitted locos as normal stock, a practice which from photographic evidence seems to have been common in my own area of interest, Tondu in the 50s.  I have a photo of 57xx 5756 hauling 3 trailers at Abergwynfi.  The Lamboune Branch also featured trailers hauled by 'normal' locos, often Dean Goods or 2251 tender locos, because of the occasional need to carry horse boxes as a tail load on a long branch beyond the water or haulage capacity of auto locos (the chalk downs are not a good place to find water for locos) coupled with the need to serve low or ground level halts with the auto trailer's retractable steps.

 

To summarise, the trailers need to be facing the same way, cab outward from the loco.  You can't propel with a non-auto fitted coach like a B set or a van between the loco and the trailers, because the auto gear must be continuous between the loco and the driving cab.  The normal practice once the loco was coupled to the trailer(s) and the auto gear connected up was to leave it like that all day, so any tail traffic would be attached to the rear of the auto train whichever direction it was travelling in.  So you might see an auto fitted loco propelling a trailer or two and hauling non-auto stock.  Or hauling it's trailer(s) with non-auto stock marshalled behind that

 

Airfix muddied the waters in this regard in the 70s by offering a train set with a 61xx, B set, and auto trailer, an unlikely combination that didn't stop it featuring on many exhibition layouts!

 

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On 15/11/2019 at 09:32, Nick Holliday said:

Typical God's Wonderful Railwayac's comment!https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png

Apart from the fact that many of their trailers first started life as steam railmotors, the GWR was not above hacking around old coaches to make auto-trailers. The well-known Clifton sets (8 pairs) were converted from low roof stock dating from 1898, basically the old Hornby clerestories with the clerestories removed. Before them, around 1906, six clerestory roofed coaches were converted to trailers, and two four wheel thirds were adapted in 1905 to run with autotrailers.

 

I am not sure whether the coach at the front of this group is a Clifton set conversion, but it seems to fit the bill. Although I sold them 40+ years ago I did convert a couple of Triang clerestoreys to a Clifton push & pull set.

Coaching stock awaiting restoration 28 6 67.jpg

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A friend of mine is a steam driver on the Severn Valley Railway and drove an autotrain from the coach a few years ago. He found it most odd as there is a delay after opening or closing the regulator before any effect is noticed, and he felt he didn't feel what the loco actually required quite as well due to not being on the footplate. I'm sure those who did it regularly got used to it though.

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Here is my recent Bachmann version

 

 

 

7B26C8CF-B00D-449C-A20D-8BAD5CD0CF5D.jpeg

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10 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

I am not sure whether the coach at the front of this group is a Clifton set conversion, but it seems to fit the bill. Although I sold them 40+ years ago I did convert a couple of Triang clerestoreys to a Clifton push & pull set.

 

 

Leading vehicle is ex-Gloucester Inspection Saloon 80977. It started life as a Manchester & Milford carriage that was absorbed into the GWR pre-WW1. The M&M body was scrapped, & the GW built a new one on the original chassis. Much-modified, now at the Pontypool & Blaenavon.

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=221

 

Behind it is Saloon No. 249 - built to the same profile as the 1897 Royal Train but not believed to be a regular part of it. Still on the SDR.

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=60

 

At the end is a very sad case indeed… Bogie Clerestory Brake First Open No. 231of 1896. Also relocated to the P&B.

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=50

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On 16/11/2019 at 10:11, Tim Hall said:

A friend of mine is a steam driver on the Severn Valley Railway and drove an autotrain from the coach a few years ago. He found it most odd as there is a delay after opening or closing the regulator before any effect is noticed, and he felt he didn't feel what the loco actually required quite as well due to not being on the footplate. I'm sure those who did it regularly got used to it though.

 

Maybe because, as mentioned earlier, the linkage wasn't actually connected to the regulator in the cab. The fireman was keeping an eye on the end of the linkage, and then moved the regulator to the position that the driver wanted, hoping the driver wouldn't notice the delay...Possibly. ;-)

Edited by Coppercap
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On 15/11/2019 at 08:14, Hal Nail said:

 Like an A44 Collett conversion, for example?!

 

To be fair, a BR (W) thing.

BR(W) copied what the GWR did to a few coaches before WW2. I preferred the three-windowed saloon versions to these compartment versions. BUT I really disliked the Hawksworths versions with bus seats, call me old-fashioned.

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The pre-war 'cyclops' trailers were converted in 1937 from Collett flat ended non gangwayed compartment 60' D117 brake thirds for the Lydney Town-Berkeley Road Severn Bridge shuttle, which AFAIK they continued to be used on until the destruction of the bridge in 1960.  They retained their original coaching stock numbers and were not numbered in the auto trailer series.

 

The 1953 South Wales compartment trailers, also Collett flatender non-gangwayed, were 57' brake thirds with some 60' C66 all third 'intermediates' fitted with auto linkage but not with cabs.  The brake thirds were renumbered into the trailer series, representing the highest numbers in that series, but the intermediates retained their original coaching stock numbers.

 

Compartment trailers could only be used on routes where there were no ground level halts needing the retractable steps and where all the stations were staffed as there was no inside access to the compartments for the guard to sell tickets.  

Edited by The Johnster
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