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Do HST sets require turning?

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Do HST and subsequent sets, require turning for any reason, such as equalising the wear on wheels? If so, how is this done? 

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Operators do like to run then a particular way round with the first class section at a particular end. Sometimes an issue occurs which forces them to run the formation the wrong way. For example, a fault which only allow running 1 way. After repair, they find a suitable opportunity to turn the unit back again.

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East Coast sets including HSTs (and also Pendolinos on the WCML) tend to stay the same way round simply because there's not much opportunity for them to be reversed.  If that happens, usually after engineering diversions, there are routes they can take to turn them back.  For example using the High Level Bridge in Newcastle instead of the King Edward, or using the triangle formed by the North London Line and its two connections towards Finsbury Park.  I think GWR is similar.  East Midlands tend to be pretty random because anything that starts or ends its day at Nottingham gets reversed on its way to or from depot, and there's no easy way of turning them during the day or overnight. 

 

I don't think uneven wheel wear is much of a problem for long-distance trains, more so for tramways and metros where there are tighter curves and the shorter routes means a particular set runs over them more often.  

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The GWR HST fleet could be turned at a number of locations, most conveniently near a depot.

 

At Plymouth Laira there is a triangle.

At Swansea Landore there is a triangle

At Bristol St Phillips Marsh there are two routes two Temple Meads which can be used to arrange a set either way round.

In the London area did sets go up around the Greenford Loop?

 

Edit - sets would normally start the day the correct way round (1st class towards London), but service disruption and diversions could cause sets to be reversed, or a failed speedo might mean a set was reversed deliberately.

 

cheers 

Edited by Rivercider
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21 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

The GWR HST fleet could be turned at a number of locations, most conveniently near a depot.

 

At Plymouth Laira there is a triangle.

At Swansea Landore there is a triangle

At Bristol St Phillips Marsh there are two routes two Temple Meads which can be used to arrange a set either way round.

In the London area did sets go up around the Greenford Loop?

 

Edit - sets would normally start the day the correct way round (1st class towards London), but service disruption and diversions could cause sets to be reversed, or a failed speedo might mean a set was reversed deliberately.

 

cheers 

Greenford Loop ( known as 'going round Greenford') was used to turn HST sets and power cars were sometimes turned on the turntable at Old Oak.  Set turning usually only happened as a result of engineering work or other diversions or to put a set back the right way round after such a diversion (although the latter was often left for the next lot of diversions to put it right) or as a result of some sort of technical problem such as failed AWS, speedo, or failed windscreen wipers.

 

AWS failures usually only resulted in a set being turned if they occurred at short notice while windscreen wiper failures could result in sets being turned during their (passenger working) journey;  I know of at least one occasion when an HST was turned on Oxford Road triangle at Reading as a result of the windscreen wiper failing when it was running down from Paddington.

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We used to send HST’s from old oak and back via the greenford loop for turning,  majority of the time it was because we had a failed power car and sods law meant the only serviceable one on the depot was the wrong way round.

 

that or turning it so the first class was at the london end, was the usual reason.

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Greenford Loop ( known as 'going round Greenford') was used to turn HST sets and power cars were sometimes turned on the turntable at Old Oak.  Set turning usually only happened as a result of engineering work or other diversions or to put a set back the right way round after such a diversion (although the latter was often left for the next lot of diversions to put it right) or as a result of some sort of technical problem such as failed AWS, speedo, or failed windscreen wipers.

 

AWS failures usually only resulted in a set being turned if they occurred at short notice while windscreen wiper failures could result in sets being turned during their (passenger working) journey;  I know of at least one occasion when an HST was turned on Oxford Road triangle at Reading as a result of the windscreen wiper failing when it was running down from Paddington.

I was on a Hastings Diesels trip to South Wales a few years back and the horn failed on the approach to Newport ...... after a bit of head scratching & path finding we turned on the Maindee triangle before heading back to England : oddly, though, the driver seemed happy to use the whistle entering the Severn Tunnel and thereafter. ( The question is, though, what warning device was in use when we reversed, again, at Woking ? )

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There is an evening Pendolino working from Euston to Edinburgh that then runs ECS to Polmadie for servicing, the ECS run goes via Shotts, Mossend East, Mossend South and Motherwell to reach Braidhurst Loop, where it reverses and runs via Mossend South and Mossend West junctions to reach Glasgow Central before running out to Polmadie, all this to ensure that the FIrst Class remains a tthe London end!

 

I also believe that there are ECML HST diversions via Carlisle that run via Gateshead, Newcastle (wrong direction to normal), Carlisle, Carstairs then if going on to Aberdeen run via the Edinburgh "Sub" to stay correctly formed, did that route behind a Deltic once

 

Jim

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8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 I know of at least one occasion when an HST was turned on Oxford Road triangle at Reading as a result of the windscreen wiper failing when it was running down from Paddington.

 

I remember doing this on a few occasions for various reasons; the presence of a double slip at Reading West Junction made it possible to turn an HST whether it was a Berks & Hants train or heading down the main line towards Didcot.

On the subject of turning trains, many years ago I was being interviewed for an ops job at European Passenger Services and was asked where on the WR it would be possible to turn one of the rakes of European sleeper trains that were planned, should that be necessary. Coincidentally, the interviewer was the very gentleman whose post I have partially quoted above.  

Edited by Western Aviator
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2 hours ago, luckymucklebackit said:

I also believe that there are ECML HST diversions via Carlisle that run via Gateshead, Newcastle (wrong direction to normal), Carlisle, Carstairs then if going on to Aberdeen run via the Edinburgh "Sub" to stay correctly formed, did that route behind a Deltic once

 

EC diversions via Carlisle reverse direction at Newcastle, departing via the K.E.B. so First class leading, via Carlisle, Carstairs, and Haymarket into Edinburgh, so no need to use the 'Sub' to turn them.

With a Deltic it was probably to avoid the need to 'run-round'.

 

On the ECML they always seem to have been keen on keeping sets the 'right way round' ie First class next to the buffers / exits at Kings X. Normally quite east as the routes mean they don't tend to get turned in normal service.

A number of the diversions used will turn the set though, but it's easily put right the first time it gets to Newcastle. One regular working, the evening Aberdeen - Leeds is often booked on a diversionary route from York which brings it into Leeds from the wrong direction. It's pre-turned at Newcastle so the diversion puts it right again.

The layout at Newcastle makes it particularly easy to turn sets. Of the four routes, three can arrive or depart the station in either direction, and for the other, the North Main Line, they're simply turned the other side of Newcastle. Plus the time penalty for turning a set 'round the bridges' is usually only around 5 minutes.

Defects meaning it can't be driven from the leading end are more problematic on EC, as it's really only Newcastle where it's possible to turn a set en-route. This usually results in the train being terminated, then doing a set swap with a train in the opposite direction, so the defective end's trailing and the set ends up convenient for Bounds Green or Craigentinny.

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I remember waiting for a London train at Newcastle many years ago and there was an announcement that the train from Edinburgh was arriving in reverse formation ...... so everyone shuffled along to the other end of the platform and the train arrived the right way round ! ( it departed the wrong way round though )

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2 hours ago, Ken.W said:

On the ECML they always seem to have been keen on keeping sets the 'right way round' ie First class next to the buffers / exits at Kings X. Normally quite east as the routes mean they don't tend to get turned in normal service.

I think I read somewhere that Bounds Green is set up with the equipment needed for servicing a 91 concentrated at one end of the shed, so it's inconvenient if a 225 set gets turned.  

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Iv been told 225 sets were turned round the Leeds, Harrogate, York loop, not seen a pic though..

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1 hour ago, Edwin_m said:

I think I read somewhere that Bounds Green is set up with the equipment needed for servicing a 91 concentrated at one end of the shed, so it's inconvenient if a 225 set gets turned.  

 

That probably is how Bounds Green's set up, as that's the way the sets are. From Newcastle, we never get on the depot.

It has though, long been the practice, since well before the 225s, or even 125s, on EC sets to have them First class south, so the  First class are first out the platform at Kings X, and to the taxi rank. Not as trivial as it may sound, with a busy train I've seen passengers still leaving the platform a good 10 minutes after we've arrived, and not just talking of the stragglers either!

The 225s were designed for Kings X to have the First class at the south end, and the loco on the north end so it's easy to swap off if needed by Bounds Green.

The biggest issue when a set's in reverse is the time lost, as the coaches are in the opposite order to the platform marker boards for passengers with reservations - most of them these days.

 

21 minutes ago, jessy1692 said:

Iv been told 225 sets were turned round the Leeds, Harrogate, York loop, not seen a pic though..

 

Bit of a problem there, it's not electrified

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I have only experienced two reversals of an in-traffic HST st, and both have been mentioned in this tread.

 

One was a wales bound set which developed a power car fault and reversed using the Reading West triangle. the other was a Glasgow Queen Street - Kings Cross service which reversed at Edinburgh using the sub-lines and was then diverted via Carstairs   & Carlisle and had to avoid reversing at Newcastle from the South/West and just continuing on and departing over the High level bridge.

 

This adds Newcastle to that list of stations where trains to London [can] depart in both directions.

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10 hours ago, luckymucklebackit said:

There is an evening Pendolino working from Euston to Edinburgh that then runs ECS to Polmadie for servicing, the ECS run goes via Shotts, Mossend East, Mossend South and Motherwell to reach Braidhurst Loop, where it reverses and runs via Mossend South and Mossend West junctions to reach Glasgow Central before running out to Polmadie, all this to ensure that the FIrst Class remains a tthe London end!

 

I also believe that there are ECML HST diversions via Carlisle that run via Gateshead, Newcastle (wrong direction to normal), Carlisle, Carstairs then if going on to Aberdeen run via the Edinburgh "Sub" to stay correctly formed, did that route behind a Deltic once

 

Jim

would n't it be possible to turn it on the triangle at Rutherglen station?

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2 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

That probably is how Bounds Green's set up, as that's the way the sets are. From Newcastle, we never get on the depot.

It has though, long been the practice, since well before the 225s, or even 125s, on EC sets to have them First class south, so the  First class are first out the platform at Kings X, and to the taxi rank. Not as trivial as it may sound, with a busy train I've seen passengers still leaving the platform a good 10 minutes after we've arrived, and not just talking of the stragglers either!

The 225s were designed for Kings X to have the First class at the south end, and the loco on the north end so it's easy to swap off if needed by Bounds Green.

The biggest issue when a set's in reverse is the time lost, as the coaches are in the opposite order to the platform marker boards for passengers with reservations - most of them these days.

 

 

Bit of a problem there, it's not electrified

Ah yes should have said dragged around the Harrogate loop!

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Why go all that way, when they could just be shunted around the Holbeck triangle.

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8 hours ago, JOHNMCDRAGON said:

would n't it be possible to turn it on the triangle at Rutherglen station?

 

Possible, but I think that the route that they use also provides drivers with diversionary route familiarisation

Jim

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8 hours ago, JOHNMCDRAGON said:

would n't it be possible to turn it on the triangle at Rutherglen station?

 

Virgin Drivers do not have route knowledge, other than for the main line, at Rutherglen.

 

Occasionally an Up Pendolino has been turned at Carstairs on the triangle there, however due to the signalling and track layout this does not entail a single reversal at Carstairs East Jc, but three reversals; At Carstairs South Jc, East Jc, and Carstairs station. The passengers must wonder what on earth is going on !

It is possible to turn an Up direction train at Motherwell, by reversing in Platform 1 and going forward via Holytown to Law Jc. A Down train could also turn by running into Motherwell via Holytown and reversing there.

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Midland Mainline HST sets could quite often be in reverse formation due to the reversal at Nottingham on London-Sheffield workings not routed via Derby  or Toton, while use of the "old" road from Chesterfield to Sheffield would have the same result.

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XC Hsts can be reversed by how run to/ from Birmingham by using the main line via Selly Oak  or via the Camp Hill lines.   Also running via Severn tunnel junction  vice Yate can turn sets if Bristol Parkway is missed.  Also  running from Bristol via Bath and Westbury to Taunton spins the set !  To name just a few.

 

North of Birmingham - At Derby reversing and running via Toton turns set . Plus Chesterfield via Beighton to Sheffield turns set.  Along with moves in Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh can spin set. XC crews no longer sign enough of the Middle belt of Scotland to turn but other moves were available.        

 

Reasons for turning are motivated by repairs to vehicles as other diversions cause delay issues which of course import compensation costs !  Network rail network failures can force reversals to allow a journey to continue but then XC passes on the compensation costs...   This is why XC has never had a lead end on its network but has tended to see first leading to Plymouth as correct for HSTs only.  The use of information screens to inform passengers of where accommodation can be found  and is updated by automated systems and the happy fingers of real staff when  out of changes occur ( normally when I am  on shift ! )

Robert           

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Slightly off topic; when I worked at Wembley Carriage Depot, we sometimes had to turn individual sleeping cars within the train formation to get them the correct way round (Mark 3 sleepers). The correct orientation was to have SLEP and SLE paired with the toilets at the outer end of the pair and thus the attendant's pantry in the middle of the pair.

The technique was to utilise the Works Train to send the affected vehicle from Wembley to Crewe and back - one way via Oxley and the other via Trent Valley. 

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Just remembered one fleet that does require occasional turning - Heathrow Express. The route from Paddington to Heathrow is straight apart from the sharpish left turn to get to the airport. Turning the sets evens wheel wear.

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