8 Wheel Tender - Collett Type - Missing History

[M.I.B]

There is a post on the UK Prototype pages regarding Mr Collett's 8 wheel tender.

 

It seems there is more than one version of the allocation history doing the rounds  (I have found 4 different versions all with errors it seems) .  And there seem to be missing chunks/allocations (Post 5017  for example).

 

I'm posting this on here, where the GW aficionados lurk, to see if any of you can add to the discussion:  photos of it in use, confirmed allocations (with references if possible)

 

Thanks.

Edited November 27, 2019 by M.I.B
Spelling

[Hilux5972]

[Neal Ball]

4 hours ago, M.I.B said:

There is a post on the UK Prototype pages regarding Mr Collett's 8 wheel tender.

 

It seems there is more than one version of the allocation history doing the rounds  (I have fund 4 different versions all with errors it seems) .  And there seem to be missing chunks/allocations (Post 5017  for example).

 

I'm posting this on here, where the GW aficionados lurk, to see if any of you can add to the discussion:  photos of it in use, confirmed allocations (with references if possible)

 

Thanks.

 

You might find @Miss Prism will have some more information

[Miss Prism]

Sorry, can't help.

 

[M.I.B]

2 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

That is one of the versions.  It lists more allocations than others.

 

All of the versions are the same up to and including  5017 The Gloucestershire Regiment.  Between there and 5094 it differs.

 

 

Not trying to create problems:  just trying to get to the bottom of this.

 

Thanks for posting.

[Wenrash]

By using the Ian Sixsmith books you should be able to create a time line for this tender.  These books give the allocated tender for each individual locomotive. As you are basically looking  at Castles and Halls, these have been covered by the publications. Unfortunately I only have the Castle and book 1, ie 4900 to 4999 of the Hall Class.

The first date is the date that tender No 2586 was attached. The second date is the date the next tender is assigned.

 

5919

5001

 

[Wenrash]

Sorry posting error.

Tender No 2586

5001              10/31              14/08/36

5032          27/07/35             06/05/40

5071          07/06/40            09/05/42

5049          21/04/42            23/06/44

5017          23/06/44            17/12/45

6951

5068          16/04/48             03/11/49

4043

4093          not listed on  the engine history sheet

4918           12/08/50             13/08/51

5957

6912

6905

5904

 

Sorry I can not fill in the rest as I do only have book 1 of the "Halls". Somebody else may be able to help.

 

Richard A

[M.I.B]

Thank you Richard.

 

I can fill in some of those gaps, with info from reliable sources such as photographs.  I will wait a while to see if anything more comes in before I post the results.

 

Your dates for 5001 and 5032 don't tally by the way.

 

I agree on 6951 filling the time gap between 5017 (verified on many sites) and 5068 (verified by a photo and the unique timestamp of the "British Railways" scripted tender).

 

 

6951 was not named at this time and would have been out-shopped in black with plated side windows (plated not shutters - there was a difference) There are a few photos of other members of this batch in this condition.

[rprodgers]

This may be well known but can I ask why was an 8 wheel tender built ?

 

I assume it was found to not be that useful as it was unique?

 

R

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, rprodgers said:

This may be well known but can I ask why was an 8 wheel tender built ?

 

There is a paragraph on this.  (Search for 2586 on the page.)

 

[BMS]

JN Maskelyne  Editor MRN (GW Fanatic) in Sept 46 MRN Page 188 has a similar list to the one just above starting from 5071(1940) to 6952 except that 5049  splits the 5017 period: no dates unfortunately. Obviously nothing post 1946

[ianwales]

9 hours ago, M.I.B said:

 

 

 

6951 was not named at this time and would have been out-shopped in black with plated side windows (plated not shutters - there was a difference) There are a few photos of other members of this batch in this condition.

 

Does this mean the 8 wheel tender was painted black to match 6951?

 

Ian

[M.I.B]

Tenders weren't always painted to match especially during WW2 and shortly after - the engine would go into the works minus tender hence tender swaps. 

 

Tenders would be on a different maint schedule hence why sometime an engine "loses" a tender inbetween shop visits.

 

There was a photo doing the rounds on the web until recently of sister engine 6944 in "as built black" at Didcot or Reading with a lined green 4000 gallon.

 

Hence why I think that 6951 would have been seen un-named, in black with a lined or unlined 8 wheeler tender showing the G**W logo.  This batch of engines seemed to be named when they went in for a "heavy" which for this batch would have meant a colour change, and removal of the plated up window apertures on the cab sides.

Edited November 29, 2019 by M.I.B
more detail

[The Fatadder]

I wish you hadn’t posted that.  I already have a modified Hall and really shouldn’t add another, but an unnamed black hall with no windows and a green 8 wheeled tender just sounds too interesting a project to resist.   Will watch with interest to see if it’s condition is confirmed.....

[M.I.B]

I have a 6944 in that condition based on that photo.

 

I hadn't planned on a second one, but I started with the Shapeways 8 wheel tender chassis and to fit the 8 wheeler into my period (post WW2 to BR) it has to be 6951.

 

Had 6951 been an unmodified or early Hall it would probably have been green or lined green.  But then again there is a chance that it could have been black..........

 

I have already taken my Bachmann Hall start point apart and again I'm looking at removal of the "box" which supports and fixed the nameplate in place.  it's hidden on named engine models,  I have a spare reverser rod ( this is only half seen and hence half moulded on  the model).  But on the fireman's side there is a moulding which again is abbreviated on the model and I need to extend.  I can't remember how I did this last time.

[rprodgers]

On 28/11/2019 at 14:55, Miss Prism said:

 

There is a paragraph on this.  (Search for 2586 on the page.)

 

 

 

Thanks  

[Steamport Southport]

On 29/11/2019 at 15:15, M.I.B said:

I have a 6944 in that condition based on that photo.

 

I hadn't planned on a second one, but I started with the Shapeways 8 wheel tender chassis and to fit the 8 wheeler into my period (post WW2 to BR) it has to be 6951.

 

Had 6951 been an unmodified or early Hall it would probably have been green or lined green.  But then again there is a chance that it could have been black..........

 

I have already taken my Bachmann Hall start point apart and again I'm looking at removal of the "box" which supports and fixed the nameplate in place.  it's hidden on named engine models,  I have a spare reverser rod ( this is only half seen and hence half moulded on  the model).  But on the fireman's side there is a moulding which again is abbreviated on the model and I need to extend.  I can't remember how I did this last time.

 

It was an unmodified Collett version. 6959 upwards were the Hawksworth modified type.

 

6951 Impey Hall built February 1943. Built unnamed. No idea what livery though. Had they started painting them black then? Seems so according to http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1942.html

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_hal_hall69a.htm

 

 

Jason

Edited December 7, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[The Fatadder]

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

It was an unmodified Collett version. 6959 upwards were the Hawksworth modified type.

 

6951 Impey Hall built February 1943. Built unnamed. No idea what livery though. Had they started painting them black then? Seems so according to http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1942.html

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_hal_hall69a.htm

 

 

Jason

It’s not listed under the black halls in GWRJ no7, however I guess that is listing only. shows repainted and 6951 would have been black from new. 
 

 

[M.I.B]

The 6950 range of     batch 340     Halls were black from new and had no cab side windows  from new - the apertures were there but a filler sheet was rivetted in place.

 

Not the same as the oil burners and some in WW2 which had sliding shutters fitted.  

 

 

 

Then add more confusion because some pre-war lined green named halls went to Swindon, came out black, with rivetted over side windows.....

 

Maindy Hall    (Lady of Legend) was one such example.

 

 

Love  Swindon's standardisation..........

Edited December 7, 2019 by M.I.B
added more info

[M.I.B]

On 29/11/2019 at 15:15, M.I.B said:

I have already taken my Bachmann Hall start point apart and again I'm looking at removal of the "box" which supports and fixed the nameplate in place.  it's hidden on named engine models,  I have a spare reverser rod ( this is only half seen and hence half moulded on  the model).  But on the fireman's side there is a moulding which again is abbreviated on the model and I need to extend.  I can't remember how I did this last time.

 

Given up with this - it was too difficult to alter.

 

Instead a maroon Hornby Hall is on it's way and the Bachmann will become Salisbury's  6966 Witchypoo Hall.      Simple conversion: outshopped in lined green so it's just coal, crew and plates from Modelmaster.

[M.I.B]

Here is the info I have so far (in two chunks).

 

I have made an amalgamation of all current listings to produce a timeline.

 

I have not removed those listings which are dubious/lack credibility - this is for the sake of completeness.

 

If photographic evidence comes up and disproves this table, I will amend as required.

 

"to" date is based on the allocation of a different tender, or a formal recorded removal/re-issue elsewhere

 

 

[M.I.B]

Part 2:

 

 

Unfortunately I am not able to get to my reference books, but if anyone wants to PM me with updates (including reference please) I will make the necessary alterations.

 

I won't remove the incorrect listed allocations - they need to be kept in the list for completeness.

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

[M.I.B]

I have just picked up a copy of "The Power of the Castles" by RC Riley and Peter Waller.

 

Along with some good photos of 5032 with the tender (lined and shirtbutton logo) , there is a write up which lists the Castles which ran with it.  This list includes  the disputed 4093, but unfortunately the engines are listed in numerical order and only the Castles.

 

A picture or dates would help........

 

Later in the book are some lovely photos of Spitfire with the tender (lined & shirtbutton logo).  The cab side windows are over plated.

Edited July 19, 2020 by M.I.B