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SR/SECR L1 detail

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I wonder whether someone could just help me on a point of detail on the attached photo(s). Am I right in thinking that the component ahead of the front driving wheel is a Steam reverser, not a Westinghouse pump? My apologies for the lack of knowledge.

 

Similarly, looking at pictures of various locomotives, there seems to be differences between them in that some have Steam pipes from the smokebox and some don't. For such a small class, (to me) that seems a strange variation. Does any one have any thoughts on that?

 

thanks in advance for any help...

 

Hugh

L1 image.jpg

L1 image 3.jpg

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Hugh

On your first point you are correct, It is the Stirling designed steam reverser that originated on the SER and was also used by the SECR and SR. Probably the most reliable steam reverser fitted to UK steam locos.

 

On the second point, you have confused yourself, the upper picture is looking at the RH side of 757, the lower picture the LH side of 788. All the LI class had this pipe but it was in all cases on the RH side. It is the vacuum ejector exhaust pipe.

 

Lastly please don't apologise for not knowing something, a polite question should get a polite reply, I hope mine is.

Regards

Martin

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Many people who should know better don'y seem to recognise the Stirling reverser for what it was - I received a magazine the other day with a part photo of a Westinghouse-fitted 'C' class : the wessie pump was correctly identified but the reverser was thought to be a Weir feed pump !

In the case of the L1 - and many locos - the pipe ALONG the boiler is, indeed, the vacuum ejector exhaust ( someone else was asking the other day : External Boiler pipe... what does it do? thread ) but that odd pipe curving up from the running plate to the smokebox on the fireman's side is a little more unusual : it's the feed to the exhaust steam INjector ......... confusing innit !!?! ( Not sure whether exhaust injectors were fitted to all the L1s or for all their working lives - certainly this conspicuous elbow didn't appear on many - if any - other SR locos.)

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Thank you both for the helpful (and polite!) replies. I feel a little sheepish that of all the photos of L1s I have looked at, I never twigged the pipe was always on the lhs and, for whatever reason assumed (never assume) they would be a pair.  And thanks for the confirmation of the Steam reverser. I am about to revive a stalled upgrade of an old Triang model and now am better informed of two more elements...

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You really need photos of both sides of the loco you want to model, in the period you are modelling. Not always possible, but get as many as you can of them within the modelling period. Then it's down to questions and educated guesses.

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The pipe on the LH side isn't the ejector - that's on the driver's (RH) side. This is the feed pipe for an exhaust injector which is on the fireman's side (puts water in the boiler). Tender handbrakes (which started this query) are almost always on the fireman's side of the tender, reversers and ejectors (to take air out for the vacuum brakes) always on the driver's side.

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The L1 class seems to be a little unloved, as photos of them are relatively rare. They suffer, perhaps, from being what was effectively a pre-grouping design built by one of the big four. There are several other classes that seem to have suffered from this lack of interest. Bradley, in his RCTS works, included them in his SECR section, and doesn't even mention them in his first volume of Southern built locos!

If you can get hold of it, Locomotives Illustrated 78, Maunsell SR 4-4-0s, from July 1991, has few L1 photos, but, usefully, it has two of 31787 taken one month apart in 1951, with clear views of both sides.

Edited by Nick Holliday
Title of LI 78 added
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David Maidment's recent book "Southern Maunsell 4-4-0 Classes (L, D1, E1, L1 & V)" published by Pen & Sword is pretty good for L and L1 pics - a chapter devoted to each of these types.

Tony

 

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1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

The pipe on the LH side isn't the ejector - that's on the driver's (RH) side. This is the feed pipe for an exhaust injector which is on the fireman's side (puts water in the boiler). Tender handbrakes (which started this query) are almost always on the fireman's side of the tender, reversers and ejectors (to take air out for the vacuum brakes) always on the driver's side.

Just to clarify : that's Left Hand or Right Hand looking FORWARD from the cab - rather than as seen head on ( as you'd describe a headcode, for instance ).

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1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

The L1 class seems to be a little unloved, as photos of them are relatively rare. They suffer, perhaps, from being what was effectively a pre-grouping design built by one of the big four. There are several other classes that seem to have suffered from this lack of interest. Bradley, in his RCTS works, included them in his SECR section, and doesn't even mention them in his first volume of Southern built locos! ............................

Yes, Bradley lumps all the mogul family in the SECR volume too - even the W class which didn't appear 'til 1932 !  ( Odder still, perhaps, is inclusion of the 'G' class in the LCDR volume !

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Thank you all for the additional information.  @Nick Holliday suggests them to be a somewhat unloved loco but, for some odd reason, I've always been attracted to them - even to the extent of undertaking the revision to the elderly Triang model when running it on my (in progress) layout would even be stretching Rule 1. I wasn't aware of the new book, so that is one to track down (thank you @Tony Teague) and Locomotives Illustrated 78 is now on my list as well. I do have Steam Days of June 1997 which has a decent enough article and illustrations of the class and Back Track February 2017 also has a short article.

 

As far as photos from my chosen era are concerned (early to mid 30s), they are indeed few and far between, but I am under the impression that few changes were made during their life time, (stands back and waits to be corrected!) so photos from later on will still supply appropriate detail...

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You needn't stand too far back as - liveries excepted - few changes were made to the L1s ................ the snifting valves disappeared from the smokeboxes around nationalisation and ......... er .............................

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21 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Just to clarify : that's Left Hand or Right Hand looking FORWARD from the cab - rather than as seen head on ( as you'd describe a headcode, for instance ).

Yes, always.

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I must admit to always fancying one of these type of locos, but never wanted to go to all the bother of kitbashing the Triang Hornby model, trouble is only seen the odd DJH kit come up on eBay and whilst its not one of DJH's more expensive kits they keep their value on the second hand market

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Did DJH do an L1 ? ..... they certainly did an L - with the wrong tender ! .....................  Crownline did an etched kit for an L1 and you might see one of them on fleabane once in a blue moon. 

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PDK do an L1. The DJH kit is for an E1 - they actually sell it as a "D1/E1" despite the different wheelbases of the two loco. Simpler times.....

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1 hour ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

PDK do an L1. The DJH kit is for an E1 - they actually sell it as a "D1/E1" despite the different wheelbases of the two loco. Simpler times.....

...... and the DJH "D1/E1" has a boiler that's far too big for either a D1 or E1 ......... and even too large for an L1 ! : not one of their best kits !

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On 14/01/2020 at 15:20, Nick Holliday said:

The excellent Smug-Mug website has quite a gallery of L1 photos 

 A particularly useful link to a resource I had never come across before, so thanks. Already, some very useful images there pointing me in the right direction...

 

 

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I just need to enquire from the assembled minds as to where I might be able to get a good drawing of the loco, to aid me in my endeavours. I will open up a thread on the rebuild (bash?) of the Triang model in a more appropriate sub-forum but for the time being, I am trying to mount the body on a T9 chassis and I'm getting fouling of the driving wheels on the splashers. Looks like I am going to have to remake the splashers but, before I do, a close study of what I'm aiming at might not go amiss...

 

Thanks and any suggestions gratefully recieved...

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I got works drawings for the 'L' from the erstwhile BR/OPC joint venture a number of yonks ago - so I guess the 'L1' will be available from the NRM ............ otherwise, there are drawings from Skinley ( not one of his best if I remember )  and in Jim Russell's book ....... probably from Ian Beattie in the Muddler at some time, too.

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On 15/01/2020 at 09:21, hayfield said:

I must admit to always fancying one of these type of locos, but never wanted to go to all the bother of kitbashing the Triang Hornby model, trouble is only seen the odd DJH kit come up on eBay and whilst its not one of DJH's more expensive kits they keep their value on the second hand market

 

14 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

I got works drawings for the 'L' from the erstwhile BR/OPC joint venture a number of yonks ago - so I guess the 'L1' will be available from the NRM ............ otherwise, there are drawings from Skinley ( not one of his best if I remember )  and in Jim Russell's book ....... probably from Ian Beattie in the Muddler at some time, too.

 

I have now looked up the difference between a L & L1, still have a lot to learn about the Southern and its constituents. Sorry for the confusion. Drawings in a Pictorial Record of Southern Locos by Russell

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I have the Russell book, which I have been using up to now, but I'm happy to say that, through the kindness of another RM member, I am getting a copy of a drawing that hopefully, will give me the information and ideas I need to move on...

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On 17/01/2020 at 09:42, Wickham Green said:

I got works drawings for the 'L' from the erstwhile BR/OPC joint venture a number of yonks ago - so I guess the 'L1' will be available from the NRM ............ otherwise, there are drawings from Skinley ( not one of his best if I remember )  and in Jim Russell's book ....... probably from Ian Beattie in the Muddler at some time, too.

It is. I got a copy of the Beyer-Peacock one from the MSIM about 5 years back. 

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Can I just hijack the thread a bit, I have a couple of SECR locos I want to paint, any idea where I can get a brief idea of the SECR livery, the SEF instructions are a bit sketchy looking at photos some mainframes are in reddish brown, others are in black, was there just one shade of green. Will leave the grey livery alone

 

As for transfers and lining SEF do some, also Fox, any thoughts please

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