HS2

[jamie92208]

33 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Bloomin’ell are they?  How much does it cost from Paris to SoF nowadays, last time we went it was about £70.

I think it cost us €27 each 1st class from Poitiers to Charles de Gaulle using Senior Railcards so about €41  full fare.  The OUIGOS are cheaper.

 

Jamie

[Edwin_m]

2 hours ago, class26 said:

If memory serves me right regional Eurostar never started so how can you deduce this ?. it didn`t start because it clashed with the meteoric rise of low cost airlines (using yield management!) and the time factor between the regions to Brussels / Paris was just too great. (Remember the majority of HS1 wasn`t open at the start so the time factor was greater than it would be now.

Even with yield management and some silly low fares, the number of air passengers between any UK city other than London and Paris or Brussels wouldn't fill one Eurostar per day.  Air has the advantage of offering a choice of departure times each day, and (increasingly so the further it is beyond London) a shorter journey time, so it's highly improbable North of London would fill a Eurostar.  It's possible that it could have been filled by a combination of domestic and international journeys, as is necessary for almost every other international service, but our rules requiring all passengers having to undergo border formalities and baggage screening effectively rules that model out.    

[62613]

4 hours ago, fezza said:

 

In France and Italy HS fares are significantly higher - HS2 has always been aimed at a premium business market and the government have made it clear it must be to cover costs. 

We're in the UK, not France, nor Italy

 

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

I think it cost us €27 each 1st class from Poitiers to Charles de Gaulle using Senior Railcards so about €41  full fare.  The OUIGOS are cheaper.

 

Jamie

Sorry, no I meant the tolls?

[Pandora]

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

I think it cost us €27 each 1st class from Poitiers to Charles de Gaulle using Senior Railcards so about €41  full fare.  The OUIGOS are cheaper.

 

Jamie

My continental chums from Germany and Holland are aghast by the high  levels of  UK train fares in comparison  to those countries, they too believe where foreign state railways operate UK Tocs, the UK  profits go abroad as  subsidies for their state railways

[jamie92208]

59 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Sorry, no I meant the tolls?

From Poitiers, where we access the A10 it's about €50  in tolls to Paris plus wear and tear and 270 miles worth of fuel, which in my old diesel Volvo is about €32 at current rates, so well over €100  for the journey in total.

 

Jamie

[Pandora]

17 hours ago, melmerby said:

But is far more environmentally friendly compared to driving.

 

There only two forms of transport which can claim to be environment friendly, 1) walking, 2) the bicycle.

I see nothing "environment friendly" about HS2. A vast draw of energy to save a few minutes on a journey.

I wish there was a tick box on my tax return, Your tax to build  HS2 ?

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Pandora

[DY444]

17 hours ago, fezza said:

It will be interesting to see how efficient the next generation of electric cars become. Conventional rail will still have an advantage of course. But HS2? And everyone seems to be forgetting the huge carbon footprint of building the thing - all that digging isn't being done by men with shovels and pack horses. In my patch a whole quarry is about to be filled by HS2 debris meaning thousands of lorry movements. And all for a railway that most of us won't be able to afford to travel on. Utter madness. 

 

Two observations. 

 

1.  Whilst HS1 was being built a constant theme was "white elephant" and "ordinary people won't be able to afford to travel".  In fact observing the reaction to HS2 is like watching a remake of an old film.  We now know that was wholly wrong about HS1 given the (pre-covid) success of Eurostar and Kent coast services being regularly full and standing. 

 

Since the dawn of passenger railways faster journey times have always attracted passengers despite substantial social changes and technical advances over the years.   For instance one of the very noticeable things at London outer suburban stations towards the end of the evening peak has always been theatre and concert goers heading for the West End.  Is it not at least possible that once travelling in from Birmingham takes the same time as travelling in from Stanmore that there might be a vast untapped market there?  I don't know and neither do you but it is possible.

 

2.  You have no idea at all what the fare structure on HS2 will be when it starts operation because nobody outside the small circle responsible for commercial aspects of its introduction does.  Equally neither you nor anybody else has any idea what the costs of travelling by any mode will be in 10 years time but it is a fair bet that the cost of all travel going forward will likely have a far larger political component than has historically been the case and is thus wholly unpredictable.  FWIW my view is that motoring will become very expensive indeed if the currently announced trajectory of measures are actually introduced as stated and that will totally distort the price dynamics between modes.  I also anticipate public pushback once that becomes clear and consequent policy shifts thus complicating the dynamic further.   

Edited May 16, 2021 by DY444

[DK123GWR]

1 hour ago, Pandora said:

There only two forms of transport which can claim to be environment friendly, 1) walking, 2) the bicycle.

I see nothing "environment friendly" about HS2. A vast draw of energy to save a few minutes on a journey.

I wish there was a tick box on my tax return, Your tax to build  HS2 ?

 

I think a railway saves more than a few minutes against a bicycle!

[Hobby]

A bicycle involves using the earth's resources to make it so it isn't environment friendly... Perhaps a horse? Damn, no, the methane!

[corneliuslundie]

And walking wears out shoes, and is usually on paths which have involved resources and energy to create. And even breathing isn't too good for the environment as it takes in oxygen and puts out carbon dioxide.

Jonathan

[Allegheny1600]

19 hours ago, fezza said:

We need to slow down, stop using aircraft for domestic and short haul flights and accept that you can get a long way in a day at just 100mph. I regularly drive to Italy and southern Germany in a day. 

So - you’re one of the absolute bar stewards steaming down the motorway at 100mph, are you!?

You’re complaining about high speed rail being built in the UK and admitting that you regularly break the law - as though it’s nothing even though you could easily take high speed trains in the countries you mention. And, in the same breath, state that we need to slow down!

Unbelievable!

Not to mention that no electric car made has that range at that speed so you’re also promoting polluting vehicles into the bargain.

Methinks you’ve been watching too much “ Top Gear”

Edited May 16, 2021 by Allegheny1600

[jamie92208]

Wouldn't it be lovely if this thread followed all the brilliany construction proects for HS2 rather than just rehashing the same arguments that were done to death several times over the past two years.  Bridges, tunnels and viaducts are being built, and construction trains with materials are running most days.

 

Jamie

[Hobby]

26 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

So - you’re one of the absolute bar stewards steaming down the motorway at 100mph, are you!?

You’re complaining about high speed rail being built in the UK and admitting that you regularly break the law - as though it’s nothing even though you could easily take high speed trains in the countries you mention. And, in the same breath, state that we need to slow down!

Unbelievable!

Not to mention that no electric car made has that range at that speed so you’re also promoting polluting vehicles into the bargain.

Methinks you’ve been watching too much “ Top Gear”

 

Or he's just been driving in Germany where 100mph is not breaking the limit and even the sections that are limited are 81mph... Judging by the places he named he was going to... I suspect a Telsa with stops to charge could do it...

Edited May 16, 2021 by Hobby

[melmerby]

 

 

1 minute ago, Hobby said:

 

Or he's just been driving in Germany where 100mph is not breaking the limit and even the sections that are limited are 85mph... Judging by the places he named he was going to... I suspect a Telsa with stops to charge could do it...

What's the range of a Tesla running at 100mph?. How long to recharge?

[GoingUnderground]

42 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

......FWIW my view is that motoring will become very expensive indeed if the currently announced trajectory of measures are actually introduced as stated and that will totally distort the price dynamics between modes.  I also anticipate public pushback once that becomes clear and consequent policy shifts thus complicating the dynamic further......   

Personally, I think that self-driving electric cars are a real threat to railways.

 

1. Electric cars reduce the environmental advantage of railways over road, especially if the electricity is solar, wind or tidal generated, or we get to a hydrogen economy with solar, wind or tidal generated electricity being used to produce the hydrogen. Yes, I know that much of the microplastics are from car tyres but less aggressive driving by self-driving cars may reduce that.

 

2. Reliable self-driving cars should be safer than cars driven by humans, reducing the safety advantage of rail, no mobile phone call distractions, no risk of falling asleep or being taken seriously ill when at the wheel, and faster response to potential collision/accident situations.

 

3. Electric self-driving vehicles should, in theory, be capable of higher speeds than conventional cars, reducing the speed/time advantage of rail.

 

4. In theory, because of their potentially faster reaction times self-driving vehicles should not need so much headway between individual vehicles, which would give higher utilisation of each mile of heavily used road at no extra cost.

 

5. As the proportion of self-driving electric vehicles increases and the number of accidents falls, insurance premiums may rise less quickly year on year, or even fall. This reduction in the cost of ownership will give electric cars extra leverage over rail.

 

For rail to retain any advantage over road for medium distance journeys between places, it must offer significant speed/time and space/accommodation advantages over self-driving electric vehicles, and the price differential must be kept as small as possible or rail will simply be priced out of the transport market. 

[Hobby]

9 minutes ago, melmerby said:

What's the range of a Tesla running at 100mph?. How long to recharge?

 

A quick search that anyone could do would indicate at 120mph the range is 113mi, so slightly more than that... Haven't a clue about charging but it would depend on the charger. Also the roads traversed need to be taken into account (hills for instance). I'd still think that north to south Germany would be possible in 24 hrs with an electric car and going 100mph when allowed... Wouldn't be as nice a trip as in an i/c engined car though, too many stops... Perhaps in a few years time...

[Allegheny1600]

18 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Or he's just been driving in Germany where 100mph is not breaking the limit and even the sections that are limited are 81mph... Judging by the places he named he was going to... I suspect a Telsa with stops to charge could do it...

Not much left of the unrestricted autobahn left anymore, if anything.

 I have driven/been driven from central England to the south of France and at legal speeds, it takes some doing to do it in 24 hours - you have to be on the move almost continuously with two or more drivers, limited stops for food and toilets, you could not recharge your Tesla in such short stops.

Even if fezza started his journey from Dover, he would be hard pushed to go those distances in the time stated, factor in anything that negotiates London and you’re time shoots up.

As I said, you can’t justify BREAKING THE LAW to make such comparisons, never mind that if a single trains worth of people were to try it, the chances of serious accidents go up immensely.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Just to add to Keith’s post about self- driving EV’s ( just a post or two above).....

The technology for cars to “talk” to each other, which will provide the platform for conflict resolution and other aspects of an autonomous driving environment, is already starting to be deployed on some new electric vehicles.

This is not some far off future thing.

 The hardware and software is already beginning to be put in place.

[Allegheny1600]

Just now, Ron Ron Ron said:

Just to add to Keith’s post about self- driving EV’s ( just a post or two above).....

The technology for cars to “talk” to each other, which will provide the platform for conflict resolution and other aspects of an autonomous driving environment, is already starting to be deployed on some new electric vehicles.

This is not some far off future thing.

 The hardware and software is already beginning to be put in place.

What about a suitable power source?

Without a revolution in battery technology, the only way I can see to create vehicles that have range and speed is from an external source - like an overhead supply, perhaps.

Link the vehicles more closely together and find that’s what being built!

[Hobby]

2 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Not much left of the unrestricted autobahn left anymore, if anything.

 

As I said, you can’t justify BREAKING THE LAW to make such comparisons,

 

52% actually. 

 

He wouldn't be...

 

We've been going to southern Germany and the Czech Republic every year by car since the late 90s so i speak with some knowledge of the run. He also didn't say where he lived, or where the journey was to, that was your assumption that it was from Calais. Hence in my reply I mentioned north to south Germany which was also a possibility. Calais to Dresden can be done in 9 hrs without stopping so that leaves 15 hours for breaks... Been there, done that, overnight, several times... Kids and wife asleep! Not recommended, though, as you say, for safety reasons... Two drivers alternating though, different kettle of fish...

[Ron Ron Ron]

It is already possible to drive a Tesla Model S from Edinburgh to London (400 miles) non-stop without recharging, albeit with a reduced cruising speed on the motorways.

Obviously that range will be reduced if travelling at the national speed limit of 70 mph and further still if doing up to 100 mph.

 

Note the latest version of the Model S, which is about to start deliveries, has a range approaching 500 miles plus.

Supercharging on the new V3 super chargers should see a 10% to 80% charge in less than 30 mins.

Time for a “comfort break”, refreshment, a sensible stretch of the legs and a rest for the brain.

 

 

.

[Hobby]

Hence I added "In a few years time, perhaps" to my earlier post, Ron, I can see it happening fairly quickly as well... Didn't Formula E used to have one stop due to the batteries not lasting but now don't need to. I'd have thought the power drain on an FE car being worse than a road car at constant speed as well? Battery technology is coming on leaps and bounds.

[APOLLO]

It's mostly downhill from Edinburgh to London, due to the curvature of the earth - what about the return journey ???

 

 

Brit15

[Rivercider]

12 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Just to add to Keith’s post about self- driving EV’s ( just a post or two above).....

The technology for cars to “talk” to each other, which will provide the platform for conflict resolution and other aspects of an autonomous driving environment, is already starting to be deployed on some new electric vehicles.

This is not some far off future thing.

 The hardware and software is already beginning to be put in place.

I suppose one challenge of creating self-driving vehicles is what to do with them once they have delivered the occupants to the chosen destination. Perhaps on arrival in the city centre they could collapse, or fold up, to take up less parking space.

On the other hand in the post-covid world the number of city centre offices, (and retail opportunities), may be much reduced, so city centre parking may not be a problem.

 

Personally I think HS2 will do what railways seem to have done since the beginning, and expect the magnetic pull of London to increase,

 

cheers