Jump to content

Schooner's (Mostly Maritime) Musings - A holiday in the Cotswolds [was Port of London, 1884]


Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

It instantly reminded me of an abandoned attempt to chug a narrow boat from Stratford to Gloucester, so I wonder if it is The Avon. The attempt was abandoned because it was turning a holiday into a job of work, so we chugged back to Stratford and moored there for a couple of days relaxation, before chugging back up the canal.

 

My recollection of the Avon (it's been a while) is that the banks are too high (but the width might be OK).  I'm not sure if it would fit through the lock at Tewkesbury, and it certainly wouldn't get under King John's Bridge with the mast up.

 

Adrian

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 11/03/2021 at 23:13, bgman said:

Kind of you to mention me however I am not certain quite what you mean ?

More presumptuous than kind - my apologies. I couldn't imagine there are too many people on this forum with a copy (understandably!). @figworthy I'll have a look when I'm next able and report back. 

 

A bit of coal traffic for the inspiration folder, from Frank Gegg and Co. of Cirencester:

0_MLR_GLO_cirencester-basin07-01-2021.jp

I think the boat would have come down to Gloucester, and then along the Stroudwater Navigation and Thames and Severn Canal before taking the branch up to Cirencester. The curved stem is distinctive of...something which I now can't recall, a particular builder I think, but which would be nice to model if relevant.

 

geggcoalmercant001-copy_orig.jpg

Large ones!

 

Works photo of his railway wagon(s?) here.

 

GRO%20GPS%20609-13%20c1920%20Barge%20StW

A photo taken at The Ocean, Stonehouse c. 1925. A low-sided open can be seen in the siding which serves the trans-shipment shed as a goods train passes. The siding was built to take stone brought by barge for the further construction of the railway, which was to render the canal largely obsolete almost immediately... I like the barrows, and there seem to be no more cargos West-bound than there were in 1881 which is interesting. Off to the left, the railways crossed the canal thus:

OceanRailwayBridgeThen-edited.jpg 

And a couple of hundred yards off to the right, Stonehouse Station:

13675588_2018-03-29_Stonehouse-_mark_Sta

 

Not directly relevant for me, but all useful in getting a sense of the place and perhaps of interest to others.

 

Back to boats for a tick: The other Stroud barge in the aerial photo in my previous post is the Ila, owned and operated by coal merchants E. T. Ward and Son:

Picture-2.jpg

...and as one of these is on the way...

dapol-s3006-gwsr-commission-private-owne

 

...I should probably have another think about coal on the wharf. I was intending to largely ignore it - a pile of coal up against the bridge on the RHS for use on the wharf and immediate vicinity as a side-line for the timber merchant - with the main local coal yard supposed to be off-scene at the main local goods yard. Does this need a re-work? 

 

Apropos of nothing, I noticed several varnished coal wagons whilst poking about on the HMRS. Don't think I've ever seen this modeled (which isn't saying much, I know!). What's the scoop on them?

 

Cheers, happy Thursday!

 

Schooner

Edited by Schooner
ps. Looking again at that Dapol wagon...any recommondations/avoid for underframe kits, please?
  • Like 5
  • Informative/Useful 1
  • Interesting/Thought-provoking 2
  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Schooner said:

More presumptuous than kind - my apologies. I couldn't imagine there are too many people on this forum with a copy (understandably!). @figworthy I'll have a look when I'm next able and report back. 

 

A bit of coal traffic for the inspiration folder, from Frank Gegg and Co. of Cirencester:

0_MLR_GLO_cirencester-basin07-01-2021.jp

I think the boat would have come down to Gloucester, and then along the Stroudwater Navigation and Thames and Severn Canal before taking the branch up to Cirencester. The curved stem is distinctive of...something which I now can't recall, a particular builder I think, but which would be nice to model if relevant.

 

 

 

Interesting picture.  Apart from the odd shaped bow, in addition to the T stud, it looks as though it has a bollard on the port side of the bow, just forward of the hold.  The only other narrow boat I've seen like that is Hazel, which is the only remaining Runcorn Wooden Header.

 

hazel_dukes_92.jpg

 

Which is with the Wooden Canal Boat Society

 

http://www.wcbs.org.uk/our-boats/hazel/

 

Adrian

  • Like 3
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you had a snoop around Brimscombe Port in that area? It’s a bit like a Cotswold version of Millwall Docks,

currently the subject of gentrification plans.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
17 hours ago, Schooner said:

geggcoalmercant001-copy_orig.jpg

 

That is just crying out to be modelled - dog included!

 

All very atmospheric photos, thanks for sharing them.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Schooner said:

Back to boats for a tick: The other Stroud barge in the aerial photo in my previous post is the Ila, owned and operated by coal merchants E. T. Ward and Son:

Picture-2.jpg

...and as one of these is on the way...

dapol-s3006-gwsr-commission-private-owne

 

Fascinating stuff. It's a shame that such a nicely-printed livery should be put on such an absurd model. Here's my take:

 

1875828796_GloucesterETWardwagon.JPG.252bdb3912150f947ae9e43da6472622.JPG

 

Which if you've got Montague's Gloucester book or Ian Pope's Private Owner Wagons of Gloucestershire, I hope you'll agree is a bit more like. It's the Slater's 4 mm scale kit for a Gloucester RC&W Co 7-plank end-door wagon to the 1887 RCH specification. My interest in E T Ward stems from his wagon being labelled empty to Stockingford Colliery. Several other merchants in the Stroud area had wagons marked empty to Birch Coppice Colliery, also in my sphere of interest.

 

Ian Pope's book is an essential reference work if you're into the railways around Stroud before the second world war although I think you've shown that he misses the canal shipping side of the coal merchants' business.

 

21 hours ago, Schooner said:

Apropos of nothing, I noticed several varnished coal wagons whilst poking about on the HMRS. Don't think I've ever seen this modeled (which isn't saying much, I know!). What's the scoop on them?

 

No models - what's the scoop? Flamin' difficult to do!

Edited by Compound2632
  • Like 4
  • Informative/Useful 1
  • Craftsmanship/clever 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if the wagons were just varnished for the official photograph?  Similar to the way some wagons and locos were painted in shades of grey for photographing. There are photos of CR wagons in light grey with black lettering.

 

Jim

  • Interesting/Thought-provoking 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

I wonder if the wagons were just varnished for the official photograph?  Similar to the way some wagons and locos were painted in shades of grey for photographing. There are photos of CR wagons in light grey with black lettering.

 

That would be a departure from Gloucester's usual practice. As far as I can tell, varnishing the woodwork was an alternative to painting, performing the key function of a waterproof barrier. 

 

However, the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway's wagon livery before c. 1903 was unpainted wood; only some vehicles - the fancier sort such as covered goods wagons - were varnished. 

  • Like 2
  • Informative/Useful 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 18/03/2021 at 11:27, Schooner said:

GRO%20GPS%20609-13%20c1920%20Barge%20StW

A photo taken at The Ocean, Stonehouse c. 1925. A low-sided open can be seen in the siding which serves the trans-shipment shed as a goods train passes. 

 

The open on the tranship siding is high-sided - five plank. The M R lettering doesn't go right up to the top.

 

Of the five covered goods wagons passing by, the one second from the right is a banana van. Note the ventilators in the end and the position of the MR lettering.

  • Informative/Useful 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 19/03/2021 at 15:26, Compound2632 said:

The open on the tranship siding is...

...to D299? I should've bloody known! :)

 

Sorry for the slow acknowledgment of useful and interesting replies (apart from @Nearholmer, but thanks for the laugh!), bit on at the mo*. Will do better next week hopefully.

 

Till then, why might 120 tons of coal have been brought to "Bristol Road" (presumably the tranship dock and siding seen in the photo above, hard by the Midland station of the same name) in four narrow boats (uncertain if as one consignment, or a regular service of c. a boat a month) as per the tonnage notices previously linked, covering Spring 1881?

 

There's no great local demand I can see, the road access to the wharf and siding is poor, there's a proper goods yard two hundred yards away and other canal wharves for other users, it's uphill... It makes no sense to me, but where else would that coal be going other than on to MR wagons?

 

If it is, why?

 

...and why on Earth am I wondering?!

 

Yours *not-in-Suez'ly etc

  • Like 4
  • Interesting/Thought-provoking 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

Motive power for Ingleford

 

With thinking-time at a premium recently, there's not been much progress on anything useful or interesting. I have been wondering how I'm likely to use the layout, and what that means for desired/required stock and motive power (a smaller, easier topic).

 

I'm leaning towards the scheme below, based on a three-decade working life for locos (the decades told through stock) but would appreciate feedback, and advice for likely Midland candidates.

 

1880s:

Private - Beyer Peacock 0-6-0T (00 Works LSWR 330); Manning Wardle 'F' (modified Hardy's H body kit for Hornby W4). Additions likely for lack of self control and future project reasons.

GWR - 850 (Gibson kit presumably, holding out for a pre-built on eBay)

MR - ?

 

1910s:

Private - Peckett W4 (Hornby, probably Daphne)...perhaps CSP Avonside SS, skills/funds depending...

GWR - 1361 (Kernow's offering)

MR - ?

 

I'm also after your suggestions for earlier and later outliers (looking at you, Rapido 15XX), also for 0-6-0 tender engines for each category. All leads will be gratefully followed :)

 

Cheers,

 

Schooner 

 

Ps. I'll be flat out with work for another month or so, but after that have every hope of a quiet period long enough to get home and build the layout. Proper updates due then...hopefully...

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh dear. But spot on - the Johnson and Deeley 0-4-0ST/0-4-0Ts were built with Gloucester Docks in mind as well as Burton.

 

But for 1880, there are some interesting alternatives, given that the first batch of Johnson 0-4-0STs, the 1322 Class, did not enter service until the autumn of 1883. Before that, the Midland made use of a motley collection of small engines from various sources. There were some Vulcan and Sharp, Stewart 0-6-0STs that came along with the Midland's acquisition of the Swansea Vale Railway, a couple of outside-cylinder 0-6-0STs bought on the cheap on the failure of Fox, Walker & Co., and also half-a-dozen Manning Wardle Class H 0-4-0STs, five of which were bought new in the early 1870s and one second-hand from an S&C line contractor, along with a Manning Wardle Class M 0-6-0ST, and a number of other odd engines taken over from various colliery companies. Then there were also the various Kirtley 0-6-0WTs, nominally rebuilt from Jenny Lind 2-2-2s of the 1840s. All turned out in full Midland livery - green in 1880, of course!

 

While some of these engines were used at Gloucester and Burton, where they could handle the tight curves, quite a few were hired out to various collieries and foundries on the Midland system.

  • Like 1
  • Informative/Useful 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

As a near totally irrelevant PS, The Engineer in 1907 contained an article about Avonside's works, which includes a photo showing two of what I think are the locomotive portions of steam railcars, which have some design features that hint at the Avonside 0-4-0T. What I cannot fathom is which railway they are for - Avonside built the loco parts for two Taff Vale cars in 1904, but I'm not convinced they are those.

 

Now, the Midland also built some (one?) steam railcars in 1904, and blow me if the cylinder and valve-gear arrangement of that (those?) doesn't look very like that of the 1528 class, which seems to me rather un-Midland.

 

Rambling way of saying that possibly the use of Walscheart's valve-gear on these two types of "industrial" locos, something which wasn't widely applied on locos for this work in the UK until much later, has its roots in the railcar mania period.

  • Like 1
  • Interesting/Thought-provoking 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

As a near totally irrelevant PS, The Engineer in 1907 contained an article about Avonside's works, which includes a photo showing two of what I think are the locomotive portions of steam railcars, which have some design features that hint at the Avonside 0-4-0T. What I cannot fathom is which railway they are for - Avonside built the loco parts for two Taff Vale cars in 1904, but I'm not convinced they are those.

 

Now, the Midland also built some (one?) steam railcars in 1904, and blow me if the cylinder and valve-gear arrangement of that (those?) doesn't look very like that of the 1528 class, which seems to me rather un-Midland.

 

Rambling way of saying that possibly the use of Walscheart's valve-gear on these two types of "industrial" locos, something which wasn't widely applied on locos for this work in the UK until much later, has its roots in the railcar mania period.

Could it be the GNR steam railmotors they built?

image.png.b1cb44899c673914343a11c672c2f2ef.png

  • Like 2
  • Interesting/Thought-provoking 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

That’s them! I hadn’t realised that two of the GN ones started out with a ‘clockwork’ body. The Taff Vale ones did, because they had a very unusual boiler.

 

Nice photo of one in service https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/24219464919

 

 

Thank you.

 

Now, is that actually Walschaert’s valve-gear?

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Now, the Midland also built some (one?) steam railcars in 1904, and blow me if the cylinder and valve-gear arrangement of that (those?) doesn't look very like that of the 1528 class, which seems to me rather un-Midland.

 

The two Midland steam railcars were designed very quickly - to the extent that Summerson in his monograph on them suggests outside drawings may have been used. The 1528 Class were ordered in 1905 but didn't appear until 1907, which seems rather a long time. Nevertheless I wouldn't be at all surprised if valve gear drawings weren't re-used. The railcars as built had vertical boilers. The feature that both have in common that would dictate outside cylinders and valve gear is the inaccessibility of the space between the frames.

  • Like 3
  • Informative/Useful 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Norman Eagles, of “Sherwood Section” fame, visited Burton shed and measured up one of the 0-4-0s, doing an article in Railway Modeller No. 69 (sorry I can’t do month and year) but it does make up into a nice little loco.85017821-E12F-4A44-9914-878E3C690D00.jpeg.4d857fceda3e2c5c98ba64d59041283b.jpeg

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Regularity said:

A lovely looking machine.

 

But not really a success, although one was turned into a rather splendid run-about for Cecil Paget as General Superintendent (befitting his aristocratic pretensions) and subsequently a holiday home for George Dow. It's now rotting in a field having been deaccessioned by the NRM.

  • Informative/Useful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.