O gauge conflat.

[Hal Nail]

24 minutes ago, 56038 said:

But perhaps Dapol should have thought of a fixing……

 

I think this is a reflection of how expectations have changed in the relatively short space of time since people moved on from making kits.

[steveb860]

received my conflat today, without container. First impression, very nice, although that wooden deck is crying out for toning down with weathering.  Not sure what is going on with wagon number though. Something lost in translation between Dapol and the Chinese perhaps? 

Edited June 23, 2021 by steveb860

[pwr]

24 minutes ago, steveb860 said:

received my conflat today, without container. First impression, very nice, although that wooden deck is crying out for toning down with weathering.  Not sure what is going on with wagon number though. Something lost in translation between Dapol and the Chinese perhaps? 

 

You seem to have a droopy buffer too - more evidence of poor Dapol quality control. When I opened mine a coupling fell off which is the latest in a long line of similar issues.

 

Here are mine.

 

Now you have pointed it out I am going to have to change the numbers

 

 

 

 

Paul R

[steveb860]

38 minutes ago, pwr said:

 

You seem to have a droopy buffer too -

Noticed that when i put photo up. Close ups are cruel. corrected it straight away.

[sidmouth]

two await collection at Tony's trains of Rugby when I pop over next (yes I could get them posted but I can wait until a store visit) looking forward to seeing them in the flesh

[pwr]

14 hours ago, sidmouth said:

two await collection at Tony's trains of Rugby when I pop over next (yes I could get them posted but I can wait until a store visit) looking forward to seeing them in the flesh

 

 

Open them up before you take them away - mine have broken chains which I did not notice at first. As they are now sold out at the retailer I can't get them replaced. Another triumph for Dapol Quality control.

 

Paul R

[sidmouth]

2 hours ago, pwr said:

 

 

Open them up before you take them away - mine have broken chains which I did not notice at first. As they are now sold out at the retailer I can't get them replaced. Another triumph for Dapol Quality control.

 

Paul R

many thanks Paul . Will do . Tony to be fair has generally been very good 

[hmrspaul]

Although unusual, the 13 without a T for tonnage is correct on the photo that Dapol have used. How many had this is unlikely to ever been known. To be able to use this for a GWR wagon they have used an early BR design, the body was altered later for the majority of BR wagons. 

 

Paul

[Hal Nail]

12 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Although unusual, the 13 without a T for tonnage is correct on the photo that Dapol have used. How many had this is unlikely to ever been known. To be able to use this for a GWR wagon they have used an early BR design, the body was altered later for the majority of BR wagons. 

 

Paul

Dapol have quite a bit of history in producing accurate but rare livery variations, eg the black bonnet cover on the green 08, typo on the turbot etc.

 

Did the GWR built ones, (as opposed to the batch of these BR built), get absorbed by BR - if so presumably would have been retro-fitted, if not already and would have carried their old number with a W prefix? Or were they withdrawn early and replaced by BR built types? Not sure Ive ever seen an ex GWR one in BR photos other than as a Denflat.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Hal Nail

[hmrspaul]

10 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Dapol have quite a bit of history in producing accurate but rare livery variations, eg the black bonnet cover on the green 08, typo on the turbot etc.

 

Did the GWR built ones, (as opposed to the batch of these BR built), get absorbed by BR - if so presumably would have been retro-fitted, if not already and would have carried their old number with a W prefix? Or were they withdrawn early and replaced by BR built types? Not sure Ive ever seen an ex GWR one in BR photos other than as a Denflat.

Dapol accurately copied the writing on the EWS Turbot. I thought we had sorted that out. It is EWS (or a contractor) that made the mistake. It wasn't rare on that repaint, just that there weren't many repainted; they had one specific use. 

 

The later GWR conflats were VB from new - all described in the Tourret bible. Agreed that photos appear to be scarce of them on BR, but with a million or more wagons in use it is easy to understand that plenty of wagons went unrecorded. GWR Conflats seem quite rare in non official photos - perhaps they ran at night . I have written an article for the HMRS Journal on how a batch of TVR 3 plank wagons were mainly used by the GWR for container traffic but it took a general yard shot published in an Irwell Press magazine to illustrate them. And some of them lasted well into the 1950s. I would guess that the diag H6 and H7 Conflats would have been in use into the 1960s - after all BR went crazy building thousands of their very similar design in the late 1950s for them to be on the road to redundancy only a decade later as ISO containers replaced RCH ones. 

 

Paul

[Courtybella]

7 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Dapol accurately copied the writing on the EWS Turbot. I thought we had sorted that out. It is EWS (or a contractor) that made the mistake. It wasn't rare on that repaint, just that there weren't many repainted; they had one specific use. 

 

The later GWR conflats were VB from new - all described in the Tourret bible. Agreed that photos appear to be scarce of them on BR, but with a million or more wagons in use it is easy to understand that plenty of wagons went unrecorded. GWR Conflats seem quite rare in non official photos - perhaps they ran at night . I have written an article for the HMRS Journal on how a batch of TVR 3 plank wagons were mainly used by the GWR for container traffic but it took a general yard shot published in an Irwell Press magazine to illustrate them. And some of them lasted well into the 1950s. I would guess that the diag H6 and H7 Conflats would have been in use into the 1960s - after all BR went crazy building thousands of their very similar design in the late 1950s for them to be on the road to redundancy only a decade later as ISO containers replaced RCH ones. 

 

Paul

You have to wonder why Dapol would choose a vehicle to model with a mistake on it even if it is prototypical, why open yourself to critique and potentially harm sales? 

[hmrspaul]

16 hours ago, Courtybella said:

You have to wonder why Dapol would choose a vehicle to model with a mistake on it even if it is prototypical, why open yourself to critique and potentially harm sales? 

There is little reason to believe that more of these wagons, when new as depicted here, would have been written differently. The GWR didn't put the load on the wagon so the sign writers had to get used to the new way of doing things and there are lots of unusual, a-typical writing on wagons and other rolling stock in the first few years of BR. They didn't suddenly come up with a new protocol on the 1st of January 1948, it took them years to do so - and it took until 1960 for the colours to settle down (only to start changing in 1963). 

 

If you have photos then let Dapol have them, as mentioned photos of these wagons - the GWR design - are rare when new (and rare later!). 

 

You would complain just as much if they had guessed there was a T and then the photo without emerged. 

 

Paul

 

[pwr]

Having fitted the shackles ( and repaired the broken ones) I have to say they are a complete waste of time. They are not prototypically correct as they have been moulded in plastic and to give enough strength have alternate loops as solid. Once fitted they keep falling off and unless you glue them - meaning the container can't be removed - they won't stay put.. They would have been better made out of metal even if that has increased the price of the wagon. I am going to get some Slaters fittings and see if they solve the problem.

 

Paul R

[Hal Nail]

On 23/06/2021 at 18:08, steveb860 said:

Not sure what is going on with wagon number though. Something lost in translation between Dapol and the Chinese perhaps? 

 

 

Interesting doc below I've just seen linked in a chat elsewhere, as it shows 3 of the BR built GWR design conflats. EDIT: in fact they are the later BR type afterall.

 

Some quirks to note are spoked wheels, one replacement oleo buffer and two are 11 ton and one is 12!

 

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR20427_Issue.pdf

Edited January 7, 2022 by Hal Nail

[watfordtmc]

Assuming the potential GW version of the model will be either an H10 or H11, there are five images of GW livery H10’s as follows:

 

Two rather distant images of 36630 and 36641 in Ref 1, and two closer images of 36646 and 36648 in Ref 2.  In every case the vehicles are being used as runners beneath an overhanging load.  Also 36692 not loaded in Ref 3.

 

A BR era view of an H11 – W36958 - can be found in Ref 4.

 

It seems harder to find images of the early Swindon built diagram 1/061 and 1/062 BR conflats, but images of B735233 (1/061 – the Dapol model) and B735826 (1/062) can also be found in Ref 4, whilst an image of B735999 can be found in Ref 5.

Note that B735233 IS lettered as per the Dapol model, as noted by @hmrspaul.

 

The conflats, and containers, in the BR loading instructions were all built in 1957, so fairly late on in the building programme.

 

References

1. Freight Wagons and Loads in service on the Great Western Railway and British Railway, Western Region, Russell J, Oxford Publishing Co (Headington) 1981.  Images are figures 218 and 219 respectively – Freight Wagons & Loads did not trouble itself with page numbers!
2. Great Western Wagons Appendix, Russell J, Oxford Publishing Co (Headington) 1974.  Images are figures 117 (page 69) and 115 (page 68) respectively.
3. GWR Goods Wagons (3rd Ed), Atkins A, Beard W, Tourret R, Oxford Publishing Co (Hersham) 2013.  Image at p189.
4. The 4mm Wagon Part Three, Conflats & Containers, Wagons for long loads & steel, Brake Vans and Finishing touches, Kent G, Wild Swan Publications (Didcot) 2004.  All images on p19.
5. Freight Rolling Stock Exhibition (Obscure references ‘R’ us!)  A handout booklet for an early exhibition of British Railways Freight Rolling Stock and Goods Handling methods, No author, published by the Railway Executive, undated but possibly circa 1952.  Image at page 17.

Reference was also made to Wagons of the Early British Railways Era, Larkin D, Kestrel Railway Books 2006.

 

I appreciate that not too many people will have access to these references – the fact that I have is a penalty of being the age that I am…

 

Regards

TMc

14/12/2021

 

 

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, watfordtmc said:

The conflats, and containers, in the BR loading instructions were all built in 1957, so fairly late on in the building programme.

Thanks for these references.

 

Am I wrong in thinking these are of ex GWR design then? That build date seems quite late. I have the early BR wagons book which does give a list of build dates but it is in storage at the moment so I couldn't check these.

 

My recollection was that BR continued some existing orders of the big 4 wagons but generally introduced their own designs. In the case of the conflat, most BR ones were of the Slaters type with clasp brakes and a few other little detail differences to the GWR ones but there were some built with 4 shoe morton as well. I don't think the ones shown in that leaflet are the latter tho?

 

Ian

Edited December 14, 2021 by Hal Nail

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

In the case of the conflat, most BR ones were of the Slaters type with clasp brakes and a few other little detail differences to the GWR ones but there were some built with 4 shoe morton as well. I don't think the ones shown in that leaflet are the latter tho?

 

Ian

The BR clasp brake wasn't introduced until 1958 or 59. Yes they produced thousands of Conflats on that frame - they clearly recognised that container traffic was the future for revenue traffic - but they were largely redundant a decade later. But, before 1958 there were thousands of Conflats built. The open frame of the LMS and LNER design was rejected, as was the SR Carfit & Conflat D to leave the GWR design to go on being built - the number of chain loops along the side is a noticeable difference between the GW and later BR designs. 

 

If you read our book you'll see that in 1966 there were 14696 Conflat A, B and D (and 1940 L's) with only 127 Freightliner. Less than 10% remained a decade later. 

 

Paul

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brconflata

[watfordtmc]

11 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

My recollection was that BR continued some existing orders of the big 4 wagons but generally introduced their own designs. In the case of the conflat, most BR ones were of the Slaters type with clasp brakes and a few other little detail differences to the GWR ones but there were some built with 4 shoe morton as well. I don't think the ones shown in that leaflet are the latter tho?

 

As @hmrspaul says, all BR Conflats A were evolutions of the GW design and judging by the references, more Conflats A were built with Morton brakes than were built with BR clasp brake.  Morton brake conflats continued to be delivered through to 1958.

 

Conflat A deliveries were not in numerical order either, which possibly confuses matters; the table below list BR Conflat A orders by first delivery date and number range (at least I hope there will be a table when you read this!):

 

  

 

References

1. Wagons of the Early British Railways Era, Larkin D, Kestrel Railway Books 2006
2. Wagons of the Middle British Railways Era, Larkin D, Kestrel Railway Books 2007

 

Regards

TMc

14/12/2021

 

[Hal Nail]

On 14/12/2021 at 23:10, watfordtmc said:

 

As @hmrspaul says, all BR Conflats A were evolutions of the GW design and judging by the references, more Conflats A were built with Morton brakes than were built with BR clasp brake.  Morton brake conflats continued to be delivered through to 1958.

 

Thank you. So the Dapol ones are from those early small batches of 1/061s and Slaters do the BR design 1/069 but it's that big mass of 1/067s being the type seen in the leaflet above, I wasn't aware of. I'd wrongly got the idea the BR clasp design came along much earlier than it did.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Hal Nail

[markw]

13 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Thank you. So the Dapol ones are from those early small batches of 1/061s and Slaters do the BR design 1/069 but it's that big mass of 1/067s being the type seen in the leaflet above, I wasn't aware of. I'd wrongly got the idea the BR design came along much earlier than it did.

I think most people are referring to the change in body style as the BR type.

GWR  = continuous side rail and 4 chain hooks.

BR = gap in side rail and 10 or 12 chain rings.

 

A few more references

David Larkin, Bradford Barton, Pre Nationalisation Freight Wagons, page 41 W36507 H7 altered with gap in side rail.

 

Don Rowland, British Railways Wagons

Plate137 page133 1/062 4 hooks, gap in side.

 

Plate140 page138 1/062 12 rings, gap in side.

[hmrspaul]

23 hours ago, watfordtmc said:

 

As @hmrspaul says, all BR Conflats A were evolutions of the GW design and judging by the references, more Conflats A were built with Morton brakes than were built with BR clasp brake.  Morton brake conflats continued to be delivered through to 1958.

 

Conflat A deliveries were not in numerical order either, which possibly confuses matters; the table below list BR Conflat A orders by first delivery date and number range (at least I hope there will be a table when you read this!):

 

  

 

References

1. Wagons of the Early British Railways Era, Larkin D, Kestrel Railway Books 2006
2. Wagons of the Middle British Railways Era, Larkin D, Kestrel Railway Books 2007

 

Regards

TMc

14/12/2021

 

 

Useful, but sorry I don't agree that lot 2971 had clasp brake, they had Morton https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brconflata/e1207b21a

One of the stranger things about these Conflats is the variations in payload between 11, 12 and 13 Tons which doesn't appear to be linked to diagrams, period of build etc. 

 

Paul

 

[Hal Nail]

18 hours ago, markw said:

I think most people are referring to the change in body style as the BR type.

Yes me too but I've been misinterpreting the photos in the leaflet and unnecessarily confusing myself.

 

Looking again, they are quite clearly what I've always thought of as BR.

 

Anyway thanks all for the info.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Hal Nail

[Adrian Stevenson]

I bought a GWR one back in the summer and very pleased with it too. Very free running.

 

I got my usual O Gauge newsletter email from Hattons this afternoon and they are now advertising a container in LMS Livery. I cannot recall seeing or hearing about this one before so it was a bit of a surprise?

 

Cheers, Ade.

[Hal Nail]

https://www.hattons.co.uk/827649/dapol_7f_037_009_conflat_h7_flat_wagon_39452_in_gwr_grey_with_k1_type_container_in_lms_crimson_fu/stockdetail

[Hal Nail]

 

On 18/07/2020 at 15:08, Fat Controller said:

I believe the first BR Conflat A were the same as the 10' wb GWR one (H7- H9).

I thought this had been mentioned but perhaps it was on another thread, what buffers were these BR built ex GWR design fitted with originally, please?

 

I've just picked up a used one with a missing buffer so might as well change them all while I'm on.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Hal Nail