Wearing face masks or coverings on public transport to be mandatory from June 15th

[Gwiwer]

As a career railwayman I am aware of both official signals and custom-and-practice. 
 

We are in an age when there are increasing - rapidly increasing - numbers of agency staff with no railway background and very little training. 
 

I will never raise onr arm above my head. I do however raise two when needed. 
 

The “paddle” or dispatch bat has a specific meaning and has been used for some time in preference to a hand signal. However if agreement is made between station staff and train crew first then a hand-signal for dispatch is still permitted. 

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

It’s not so much not feeling the need to as they do cause communication problems especially around diesel trains or with a bus or taxi outside near gatelines.
We had conflicting instructions about wearing them on the platform too so we asked for a combined statement. (During the shift I may have to give instructions from the door or on the platform and they need to be clear). 
BTP said staff do not have to but should try to when in close contact and it doesn’t interfere with the job. That was quickly clarified this morning by the boss and a sensible compromise that leaves us to make a decision without having to worry about who’s going to make a fuss about it. 

I had a graphic demonstration as I left today where one of our gate line staff and a passenger were struggling to hear each other in a noisy entrance hall as a 166 was idling on the platform because they both had soft voices and were wearing masks. They resorted to hand signals!

I wore a mask as I left in case the booking hall was busy and work has made plenty available so I feel a good compromise has been reached relying on common sense. 

Yes I understand the communication issues as I used masks (not medical but industrial carbon filtered) a lot at work, but if you really have an issue with a communication we just lifted the mask away slightly as all was clear, but critically for 90% of the time we were protected.

 

My comment was just light hearted in relation to the Loco picture really.......keep,safe, and thank you for working through all this sh1te 

[PaulRhB]

59 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

 

We are in an age when there are increasing - rapidly increasing - numbers of agency staff with no railway background and very little training. 
 

Yep, but I felt your comment about not raising one might be a bit misleading to non staff who might think waving away a friend might cause confusion  , the point I was trying to make was a driver shouldn’t be confused as they have the full knowledge so a single arm is considered an acknowledgement only and that we use it on the lineside as such  

The penultimate paragraph here. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by PaulRhB
Clarification

[PaulRhB]

47 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

 

 

My comment was just light hearted in relation to the Loco picture really.......keep,safe, and thank you for working through all this sh1te 

It’s the media latching onto such things though and saying why aren’t the staff leading by example   
This is what caused the confusion with it being issued late Friday and all the offices being empty for two days. We challenged it first thing this morning because we didn’t want anyone slowing down a reaction in an emergency because of the confusion it caused. Some admittedly will be bloody minded and never wear a mask but we needed to sort things to have masks available to staff so if they did have to rush out they could grab one without searching etc. It also affected shunt spots amongst other things at our station which are away from the public in the open air but accessed via platforms. We would have run out of masks very fast on a technicality to adhere to a blanket instruction on platforms too. 
Common sense was intended but wasn’t clear from the brief announcement  

[Gwiwer]

41 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Yep, but I felt your comment about not raising one might be a bit misleading to non staff who might think waving away a friend might cause confusion  , the point I was trying to make was a driver shouldn’t be confused as they have the full knowledge so a single arm is considered an acknowledgement only and that we use it on the lineside as such  

The penultimate paragraph here. 

I agree the single raised arm is the accepted signal that “I know you are there” wgen lineside. 
 

As I don’t hold PTS I will not need to use that myself. 
 

The railway is a big place. The smaller the number of potentially confusing indications the safer it will be. 

[boxbrownie]

39 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

It’s the media latching onto such things though and saying why aren’t the staff leading by example   
This is what caused the confusion with it being issued late Friday and all the offices being empty for two days. We challenged it first thing this morning because we didn’t want anyone slowing down a reaction in an emergency because of the confusion it caused. Some admittedly will be bloody minded and never wear a mask but we needed to sort things to have masks available to staff so if they did have to rush out they could grab one without searching etc. It also affected shunt spots amongst other things at our station which are away from the public in the open air but accessed via platforms. We would have run out of masks very fast on a technicality to adhere to a blanket instruction on platforms too. 
Common sense was intended but wasn’t clear from the brief announcement  

TBH we haven’t watched much news at all for the past few months by choice, we have been completely isolated by necessity and to be frank we both think the media (and especially the BBC, which really hurts) are just stirring things up too much, instead of helping it’s all sensation and “what if”.....well, it’s too late for what ifs and if we knew what a what if would do we wouldn’t do it in the first place.

Edited June 15, 2020 by boxbrownie

[PaulRhB]

16 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

 

The railway is a big place. The smaller the number of potentially confusing indications the safer it will be. 

True and in context when making eye contact first and like exaggerating mouthing words it isn’t going to be mistaken for an emergency message. We’ve had platform staff not shout stop on the radio because they weren’t sure. I always assure them we’d rather they did shout stop or use the hand signal themselves even if it turns out to be a misunderstanding, same with drivers thinking they saw a stop sign and GSMR emergency calls. Do it and we will be safe, we can easily get it moving again. I just say if you’re not sure if you should then you probably should already have done it and as safety comes first no one should criticise them. 
I’ve seen so many cases where a hunch or a staff member saying it didn’t seem right proved to be spot on and also reassured those that reacted when it wasn’t that they did the right thing. 3 min delay for caution over tens of hours or more something serious is only worried about because of this horrendous financial penalty system that was intended for other aspects of performance  

 

[Ohmisterporter]

If you ever wondered about the quality of face masks you bought this article from the South China Morning Post may be of interest. 

 

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3088810/coronavirus-wheels-come-chinas-mask-making-gravy-train-low

[ejstubbs]

3 hours ago, tractionman said:

What I do find a bit perplexing is people driving cars--**on their own**--wearing face masks?  

 

The informed guidance I've seen on the use of masks that says once you've put a mask on you shouldn't take it off until you reach 'home' - buy which it seems to mean some place where you can either safely dispose of the mask (if it's not reusable) or else immediately place it in a soap/detergent solution and thence to a hand or machine wash.  Someone following that guidance would be justified in not wearing their mask on the drive to the supermarket but, having put the mask on prior to entering the supermarket, keeping it on for the drive home after leaving the supermarket.

 

More generally: doctors and nurses are trained endlessly* in the correct use of PPE including masks and gloves to reduce the risk of infection or transmission of pathogens.  At the moment the general public are basically being told "wear a mask" and left to get on with it.  That sort of approach can IMO only significantly reduce the overall effectiveness of mask wearing, and I suspect may be a significant factor in the ongoing debate about its true value.

 

The biggest fail I have seen so far with mask wearing is people walking around between shops with their masks pulled down under their chin.  AIUI a mask should either be on, or safely disposed of/prepared for sanitisation.

 

Also observed today: a disposable face mask thrown away in long grass next to a track across open country.  So they're adding to litter as well (which was almost predictable really, given the antisocial habits that some people exhibit).

 

However, and especially since the actual regulation seems to give the option of a "covering' rather than an actual mask, I suspect that what the governments various are really indulging in is a rather pathetic bit of better-safe-then-sorry/must-be-seen-to-be-doing-something-ism.

 

Which is not to say that the use of masks isn't necessary beneficial, but it needs more than a binary wearing/not wearing to make it actually worthwhile - rather than just a bit of we're-all-having-to-make-sacrifices theatre.

 

* When my wife was working as a dental nurse the subject came up in her continuous professional development with monotonous regularity.  Often the guidance changed from one iteration to the next, which wasn't particularly helpful.

[Butler Henderson]

7 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

And your point being? They have far bigger fish to fry, we tried to report a group of travellers way beyond a family group transgressing social distancing in their camp early in the lockdown cycle, their response? So what..

Interview with an official from NET (Nottm Tram)  on East Midlands Today stating all the trams has CCTV and the police would be given the tapes of persistant offenders.

[Gwiwer]

51 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Interview with an official from NET (Nottm Tram)  on East Midlands Today stating all the trams has CCTV and the police would be given the tapes of persistant offenders.

Threat not promise. I believe such action could be open to challenge as CCTV is not an “Authorised Person” and only they have authority to police. 

[John M Upton]

Indeed, a defence solicitor would have that thrown out of court in ten seconds flat.  CCTV cannot prove if a person is eligable to claim one of the accepted exemptions for a starter.

[zarniwhoop]

8 hours ago, tractionman said:

What I do find a bit perplexing is people driving cars--**on their own**--wearing face masks? 

Well, I've been doing that now that I've got a few masks - go out shopping or collecting a prescription, mask goes on at first stop and then I don't take it off until I'm home and can wash it - supposedly, once it is on you should not touch the mask until you can take it off and either wash it or put it in the washing machine, and can wash your hands.

 

I suppose that if I had a stock of masks, and plastic bags, I could use a separate mask at each stop, and bag it when I get back into the car, but for short journeys that seems excessive.

[MR Chuffer]

I have downloaded my exemption certificate from my local bus company's website and will try it out tmrrw when I go to collect my prescription using my bus pass. It's an option I have been provided with so will take it. Buses are pretty empty round here anyway so unlikely to be within 3 metres of anyone.

 

I had CV19 late January, way before lockdown, but can't get an antibody test as the government doesn't want us to split into before and afters, but my daughter had a positive one through work - she's medical - and she lives with me.

[Nick C]

16 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Face coverings has always been a safety-critical issue.  There is a risk to be balanced here.  Use of whistles was banned early in the emergency in case saliva blown through them transmitted the infection.  The only means of warning anyone of a potentially dangerous situation (such as doors closing, train departing or a fast train running through) is vocally.  An instruction requires us to make more use of vocal warnings.  Without exception those staff who have chosen to wear face coverings have found it much harder to communicate clearly whether by means of a loud warning or softly-spoken one-to-one response to an enquiry.  

 

You need some of those hand-held air-horns!

[TheQ]

3 minutes ago, Nick C said:

 

You need some of those hand-held air-horns!

or a steam powered whistle..

[Gwiwer]

13 minutes ago, TheQ said:

or a steam powered whistle..

West Country or S15 please

[Chris116]

1 hour ago, MR Chuffer said:

I have downloaded my exemption certificate from my local bus company's website and will try it out tmrrw when I go to collect my prescription using my bus pass. It's an option I have been provided with so will take it. Buses are pretty empty round here anyway so unlikely to be within 3 metres of anyone.

 

I had CV19 late January, way before lockdown, but can't get an antibody test as the government doesn't want us to split into before and afters, but my daughter had a positive one through work - she's medical - and she lives with me.

I would suggest you ask your doctor again. My wife was told by a nurse at the hospital when she went for a blood test, for something not connected with the virus, that she only had to ask her doctor for a CV19 test and one would be done. She phoned the doctor and they told her to collect the form that afternoon. She had the blood test done the following day and got the negative result two days later.

[Andy Kirkham]

13 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

The informed guidance I've seen on the use of masks that says once you've put a mask on you shouldn't take it off until you reach 'home' - buy which it seems to mean some place where you can either safely dispose of the mask (if it's not reusable) or else immediately place it in a soap/detergent solution and thence to a hand or machine wash.  Someone following that guidance would be justified in not wearing their mask on the drive to the supermarket but, having put the mask on prior to entering the supermarket, keeping it on for the drive home after leaving the supermarket.

 

 

I'm still not not sure I understand the reason for this. 

The reason for most of us to wear a face covering is to prevent the wearer from infecting other people. If you're not going to meet any other people before you get home, why do you need to keep the mask on?

[TheQ]

13 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

I'm still not not sure I understand the reason for this. 

The reason for most of us to wear a face covering is to prevent the wearer from infecting other people. If you're not going to meet any other people before you get home, why do you need to keep the mask on?

Because as you breath through it, you can get Covid on the mask from others, you should remove it where you can imediately wash your hands and face .

[BR(S)]

 

[Nearholmer]

I’m getting increasingly grumpy (yes, there is still more room on the dial) about mask-wearing, or rather the lack of it, in the supermarket.

 

Even fewer people wear a mask now, so I truly do look like the Lone Loony going round in one .......... I’m doing it in case I’ve got the bug, but don’t yet know it, but barely 1:100 other people seem to bother to protect me!

 

If that’s how it is in a shop, it will be interesting to see how it is on trains.

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, BR(S) said:

 

That is actually an improvement on the original.  Though I am not convinced by the "straps" at least they give meaning to the striped effect around the front.  

 

Who ever thought the yellow front end was dead in the water?   

[MR Chuffer]

2 hours ago, Chris116 said:

I would suggest you ask your doctor again. My wife was told by a nurse at the hospital when she went for a blood test, for something not connected with the virus, that she only had to ask her doctor for a CV19 test and one would be done. She phoned the doctor and they told her to collect the form that afternoon. She had the blood test done the following day and got the negative result two days later.

Are you confusing anti-body tests with anti-gen tests? Yes, I can have an anti-gen test delivered in the post, to see if I have the virus, not that I've had it = anti-body.

 

My daughter is a doctor, no antibody tests round here, I suspect because the government doesn't want to encourage post-Covid freedoms.

[Chris116]

27 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

Are you confusing anti-body tests with anti-gen tests? Yes, I can have an anti-gen test delivered in the post, to see if I have the virus, not that I've had it = anti-body.

 

My daughter is a doctor, no antibody tests round here, I suspect because the government doesn't want to encourage post-Covid freedoms.

The test was described to me by the doctor saying that it would test if my wife had had the virus or not. It did not show how much or if she had immunity and did not show if she had the virus at the time of the test. He called it an anti-body test and was very clear that the answer would be yes or no with nothing in between so far as whether my wife had been infected in the past.