00 Gauge Class 210 - Scratchbuilding

[Peter-C]

Hello,

 

This is the first topic I've made on here, so if I've done something wrong, please let me know!
 

I've been looking through the work done by so many people on here with there amazing scratchbuilt models of various classes for a while now, and it's inspired me to have a go myself. The only issue is - I've never done it before! 

I'd quite like to make a Class 210 for my 00 gauge layout. The Cotswold Line is one I've been on many times and seeing as the Class 210s were supposed to work on it, I thought they'd be a good unit to model. However, as I mentioned, I've never made any scratchbuilt any kind of engine or unit before, meaning I'm not sure where to start.

 

I've gone to http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/ and found the Class 210 diagrams for a whole unit. I've also got a program on my computer which will convert from the given measurements (which I assume are in millimetres on the diagrams?) to 00 scale equivalents. Now I what should I do? I assume I should start making the different pieces, such as the sides, front, roof, etc., to then put together? Or should I start at a certain part and work from there?

I should say now that because I'm working on quite a tight budget (and it's all I've got to hand/can get hold of at the moment), I'm planning to make this out of card. I've seen others on here do it so I know it's possible.

 

So yes - is there anything I should do specifically? As I said, I've never done this before, so any help would be greatly appreciated (including people telling me not to try if it's too difficult!).

 

Thanks,

 

-Peter

[37114]

Sounds an interesting plan and good luck with a scratchbuild. I guess the first question is have you made and kits etc before? I have built over 100 kits and done some meaty kit bash projects but haven't done a true complete scratchbuild as I find it is often easier to start with a base model or at least some common components (eg chassis, bogies etc).

 

It also depends on what result you want and appreciate the tight budget but personally I would stay away from card as a medium for the whole build. Even if you use it for the bodyside you will still need other parts (eg motor, chassis, bogie) to be from plastic and card is not great to paint and could warp. If you do want to scratchbuild where you can Plasticard is a good medium and would give you a fighting chance, Clive Mortimer has done some amazing things with plasticard to create 3d shapes so worth a look at his threads. You want to start with probably the bodyside first to get the profile right which will be one of the hardest parts.

 

Personally I think your best bet for a great model would be to use one of the Bratchell EMU kits as a starting point (class 455? - an EMU expert could better advise) and modify that with your own design of 3D parts or you could scratchbuild the bits from plastic card/rod. You have some computer skills so presumably can produce design work which maybe suitable for 3d printing?

[Darius43]

As 37114 has said it is useful to study the various scratch building threads here on RMWeb , especially Clive Mortimer and Signaller69’s threads.

 

Do you have model railway coach kit building experience?   If you don’t, I would recommend getting a few kits under your belt rather than going straight into scratch building.  

 

It may be better to scratch build some smaller components first rather than jumping straight in to the big model so that you can learn the techniques and the quirks of the materials and the glues used to bond them.
 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

 

[Peter-C]

1 hour ago, 37114 said:

Sounds an interesting plan and good luck with a scratchbuild. I guess the first question is have you made and kits etc before? I have built over 100 kits and done some meaty kit bash projects but haven't done a true complete scratchbuild as I find it is often easier to start with a base model or at least some common components (eg chassis, bogies etc).

 

It also depends on what result you want and appreciate the tight budget but personally I would stay away from card as a medium for the whole build. Even if you use it for the bodyside you will still need other parts (eg motor, chassis, bogie) to be from plastic and card is not great to paint and could warp. If you do want to scratchbuild where you can Plasticard is a good medium and would give you a fighting chance, Clive Mortimer has done some amazing things with plasticard to create 3d shapes so worth a look at his threads. You want to start with probably the bodyside first to get the profile right which will be one of the hardest parts.

 

Personally I think your best bet for a great model would be to use one of the Bratchell EMU kits as a starting point (class 455? - an EMU expert could better advise) and modify that with your own design of 3D parts or you could scratchbuild the bits from plastic card/rod. You have some computer skills so presumably can produce design work which maybe suitable for 3d printing?

Thanks very much for the response.

I've built quite a few Metcalfe card kits, some of them quite detailed and fiddly - although I've never tried changing them much.

Apologies - I should have explained further - my idea was to make the body out of card and then use an existing chassis, potentially cutting it to size if necessary. I've also thought about using plasticard - I've heard a lot about it and apparently it is very good.

I believe it was one of Clive Mortimer's threads which gave me the idea - I didn't know he used plasticard, though, so thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

I've looked at the Bratchell Models kits, but the issues is that the 455/8s all cost £360 for a ready-to-assemble model, which isn't going to possible for me any time soon. However - and this seems more promising - they do make a Class 317/2 kit, which costs just £144 for the 4 car kit. Seeing as the 210s are very similar to the 317s, this actually looks to be a more viable option!

I've never actually used 3D printing, but it does appeal to me. I don't have a 3D printer, though, so it could prove tricky if I wanted to go down that route.

 

Thanks very much,

 

-Peter  

[Peter-C]

1 hour ago, Darius43 said:

As 37114 has said it is useful to study the various scratch building threads here on RMWeb , especially Clive Mortimer and Signaller69’s threads.

 

Do you have model railway coach kit building experience?   If you don’t, I would recommend getting a few kits under your belt rather than going straight into scratch building.  

 

It may be better to scratch build some smaller components first rather than jumping straight in to the big model so that you can learn the techniques and the quirks of the materials and the glues used to bond them.
 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

 

Thanks very much for the response.

I'll definitely have a good look at the other threads on here - there's a lot I still need to learn, so this won't be a quick process, but it will help if I read them.

I've built several Metcalfe card buildings, but never a coach kit - I've just had a look at Peco's website and they have some nice-looking GWR 4 wheel coach kits on there for quite cheap, so I'll look into getting a few and making them.

I'll definitely make sure to test things and learn how materials work before starting. I'm thinking of using plasticard, and I know that it seems to be one of, if not the, most widely-used materials in the model railway community so there should be plenty online to help me with learning about what works and what doesn't.

 

Thanks,

 

-Peter

[BernardTPM]

A halfway house might be to use sections of a Mk.3 coach model to help with the bodyshells. That would give you the basic cross-section that will then be both strong and consistent. Obviously when it comes to windows and the like there are differences though the Class 210 was early enough to use the standard coach size windows, though with added vents of course.

Trailing bogies are the standard 'Sprinter' style, but the power bogies might take a bit more finding/expense.

The old Hornby 'shorty' Mk.3s are about the right length but I think you'd probably get a better result starting from a scale length coach, perhaps even the old Jouef ones.

[Peter-C]

11 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

A halfway house might be to use sections of a Mk.3 coach model to help with the bodyshells. That would give you the basic cross-section that will then be both strong and consistent. Obviously when it comes to windows and the like there are differences though the Class 210 was early enough to use the standard coach size windows, though with added vents of course.

Trailing bogies are the standard 'Sprinter' style, but the power bogies might take a bit more finding/expense.

The old Hornby 'shorty' Mk.3s are about the right length but I think you'd probably get a better result starting from a scale length coach, perhaps even the old Jouef ones.

Thanks very much. I hadn't thought of using a Mk3 - I've got a couple of the shorter ones but I'm not willing to go chopping them up, so if I go down that route I'll buy new ones. I can see a Mk3 (or similar) coach coming in handy for taking pieces off of to add to the 210.

Thanks for the info re: bogies - I'll be looking online for some Sprinter bogies to use when the time comes!

 

Thanks,

 

-Peter

[darrel]

What about a cut and shut Bachmann class 150/2 I've seen spare bodyshells on sale before the cab is similar as are parts of the bodyside. Under frame could be modified. I've been considering a class 318 conversion from the 150. 

Good luck with the project 

[cheesysmith]

I remembered this from a while ago.

 

 

[acg5324]

13 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

A halfway house might be to use sections of a Mk.3 coach model to help with the bodyshells. That would give you the basic cross-section that will then be both strong and consistent. Obviously when it comes to windows and the like there are differences though the Class 210 was early enough to use the standard coach size windows, though with added vents of course.

Trailing bogies are the standard 'Sprinter' style, but the power bogies might take a bit more finding/expense.

The old Hornby 'shorty' Mk.3s are about the right length but I think you'd probably get a better result starting from a scale length coach, perhaps even the old Jouef ones.

The short Hornby Mk3 coaches are an excellent basis for any of the Mk3 based EMus and DMUs. Many years ago I built a class 317/3 from them. Used the short bogies from the APT , much better choices available now. Power was from a pair of Black Beatle motor bogies. 

[Peter-C]

11 hours ago, darrel said:

What about a cut and shut Bachmann class 150/2 I've seen spare bodyshells on sale before the cab is similar as are parts of the bodyside. Under frame could be modified. I've been considering a class 318 conversion from the 150. 

Good luck with the project 

Thanks for the idea.

I had considered using bodyshells from other units but having seen some of the ridiculous prices people charge for them on eBay, along with my lack of confidence and experience regarding chopping things in half, I'd prefer to stick to making something from scratch. Although if I saw someone else do it and they did a good job and could guide me through the process, I'd be more willing to do it.

 

Thanks,

 

-Peter

[Peter-C]

9 hours ago, cheesysmith said:

I remembered this from a while ago.

 

 

That looks very interesting and helpful indeed - thanks very much!

@37114 recommended that I should look into the Bratchell Models kits and when I was looking around online at pictures of their 317/2 kit, I found a website talking about a conversion kit to take a 317/2 and make it into a 317/1 - much closer to the 210. I think it was one of the products used in that thread - but on the website I found, the links had all broken, so I guess it'll be to eBay I go to find it, or I'll have to make my own! 

 

Thanks,

 

-Peter

[Peter-C]

1 hour ago, acg5324 said:

The short Hornby Mk3 coaches are an excellent basis for any of the Mk3 based EMus and DMUs. Many years ago I built a class 317/3 from them. Used the short bogies from the APT , much better choices available now. Power was from a pair of Black Beatle motor bogies. 

Thanks for the advice.

If it turns out that I need a certain piece, or certain pieces, for the 210, I'll definitely look at the Mk3.

Was your build of a 317/3 straightforward using the Mk3s? If so, I'd be more inclined to go along with it.

 

Thanks,

 

-Peter

[Adam]

If I wanted a 210 (not my era so it's unlikely), I wouldn't look further than using a Bratchell 455 or 317 as the trailers are identical (one was re-used in a 455 to replace a trailer crushed by a cement mixer in Surrey back in 2010-11). You get almost all the bits, they're the right size and shape and the modifications are far simpler than hacking up an old short mark 3. The website works so far as I can tell and the cost, not the cheapest, sure, but for something that yields a good, predictable result seems fair, especially if you factor in your time (cutting all those windows and the door openings would be a right faff to do neatly): https://www.bratchellmodels.com/

 

The work needed on the cabs can easily be done from scraps of plastic (the etched details were by Jim Smith-Wright - I don't think he still does them, but he can be reached via his website: http://www.p4newstreet.com/).

 

Adam

 

 

[SRman]

16 hours ago, CuriousPeach6 said:

Thanks very much for the response.

I've built quite a few Metcalfe card kits, some of them quite detailed and fiddly - although I've never tried changing them much.

Apologies - I should have explained further - my idea was to make the body out of card and then use an existing chassis, potentially cutting it to size if necessary. I've also thought about using plasticard - I've heard a lot about it and apparently it is very good.

I believe it was one of Clive Mortimer's threads which gave me the idea - I didn't know he used plasticard, though, so thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

I've looked at the Bratchell Models kits, but the issues is that the 455/8s all cost £360 for a ready-to-assemble model, which isn't going to possible for me any time soon. However - and this seems more promising - they do make a Class 317/2 kit, which costs just £144 for the 4 car kit. Seeing as the 210s are very similar to the 317s, this actually looks to be a more viable option!

I've never actually used 3D printing, but it does appeal to me. I don't have a 3D printer, though, so it could prove tricky if I wanted to go down that route.

 

Thanks very much,

 

-Peter  

I was going to mention that Bratchell do offer a range of undecorated kits, but it looks like you may have aready spotted those. They still aren't really cheap but they are robust and give a good starting point. I agree with you that the 317 kit would be a better starting point too.

Whaichever way you go, I'll be very interested in your project for the 210.

[Gallows Close]

3 hours ago, CuriousPeach6 said:

That looks very interesting and helpful indeed -

 

Thanks,

 

-Peter

 

 

Hello Peter,

 

Good luck with your build.  Here is a photo of my Bratchell based effort. I do have loads more reference photos and model photos if there is any interest.

 

 

Here are some ideas / notes that you may find useful.

 

The large grille on the power car is cut from a scrap HST.

Bachmann class 170 bogies are very similar to the ones you need for the trailers (and the motor is excellent). Powered bogie may be more difficult without the Bratchell bits.

Glazing from Lazerglaze fits the Bratchell apertures

The saloon windows are smaller than Sprinter windows.  The same size as standard Mk III coaches.  Would an Oxford Mk III provide glazing, with just the hopper windows to scratch build?  Not sure, but the Oxford glazing is moulded with the fine frame included.

The sliding door windows are not as tall as those on a Sprinter

The hopper vents on the 210 were glazed, whereas on a class 317 they are stainless steel

 

Best wishes,

Chris.

[SRman]

If it is of any help, the Replica Railways motorised chassis fit into the Bratchell body shells very easily after removal of the continuous side steps. These are a Bratchell class 455/9 (upper), and a 319/1 (lower), but the 317/321/456 will all be the same, as would a Bratchell-based 210.


P_20191016_211334_vHDR_On by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr


P_20191016_211216_vHDR_On by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

Edited June 18, 2020 by SRman

[Peter-C]

3 hours ago, Adam said:

If I wanted a 210 (not my era so it's unlikely), I wouldn't look further than using a Bratchell 455 or 317 as the trailers are identical (one was re-used in a 455 to replace a trailer crushed by a cement mixer in Surrey back in 2010-11). You get almost all the bits, they're the right size and shape and the modifications are far simpler than hacking up an old short mark 3. The website works so far as I can tell and the cost, not the cheapest, sure, but for something that yields a good, predictable result seems fair, especially if you factor in your time (cutting all those windows and the door openings would be a right faff to do neatly): https://www.bratchellmodels.com/

 

The work needed on the cabs can easily be done from scraps of plastic (the etched details were by Jim Smith-Wright - I don't think he still does them, but he can be reached via his website: http://www.p4newstreet.com/).

 

Adam

 

 

Thanks very much for the comment.

I've found that Bratchell make a 317/2 unpainted kit for £144. That should provide a good base to work from, although it will take a while to be able to buy it. To get the entire thing (4 car kit, glazing, and wheels/bearings/couplings), it would cost £252, so still a lot, but around the price you could expect to pay for a DMU of a similar size from some manufacturers.

Thanks for the link for the extra cab sections - if it doesn't work out with my own stuff then I'll look into getting some of his pre-made ones.

 

Thanks,

 

-Peter

 

[Peter-C]

1 hour ago, Gallows Close said:

 

 

Hello Peter,

 

Good luck with your build.  Here is a photo of my Bratchell based effort. I do have loads more reference photos and model photos if there is any interest.

 

 

Here are some ideas / notes that you may find useful.

 

The large grille on the power car is cut from a scrap HST.

Bachmann class 170 bogies are very similar to the ones you need for the trailers (and the motor is excellent). Powered bogie may be more difficult without the Bratchell bits.

Glazing from Lazerglaze fits the Bratchell apertures

The saloon windows are smaller than Sprinter windows.  The same size as standard Mk III coaches.  Would an Oxford Mk III provide glazing, with just the hopper windows to scratch build?  Not sure, but the Oxford glazing is moulded with the fine frame included.

The sliding door windows are not as tall as those on a Sprinter

The hopper vents on the 210 were glazed, whereas on a class 317 they are stainless steel

 

Best wishes,

Chris.

That looks really good. Thanks for the info as well regarding different bits - as I've said further upthread, it will take a while before I can get the kit to make the unit, but in that time (we're talking a good few months to a year, potentially), I'll be building up a stack of notes and information to help me make it when I get to that point.

My plan is to make 210001 - the four-car set - so I'll be using the entirety of the 317 kit from Bratchell Models. I'd definitely like to see any more photos of your unit!

 

Thanks,

 

-Peter

[Peter-C]

31 minutes ago, SRman said:

If it is of any help, the Replica Railways motorised chassis fit into the Bratchell body shells very easily after removal of the continuous side steps. These are a Bratchell class 455/9 (upper), and a 319/1 (lower), but the 317/321/456 will all be the same, as would a Bratchell-based 210.


P_20191016_211334_vHDR_On by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr


P_20191016_211216_vHDR_On by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

Thanks very much - much appreciated. I'll be looking out for the chassis, definitely!  This project is going to take a long time, but it will (hopefully) all be worth it in the end.

 

Thanks,

 

-Peter

[acg5324]

10 hours ago, CuriousPeach6 said:

Thanks for the advice.

If it turns out that I need a certain piece, or certain pieces, for the 210, I'll definitely look at the Mk3.

Was your build of a 317/3 straightforward using the Mk3s? If so, I'd be more inclined to go along with it.

 

Thanks,

 

-Peter

Scratchbuilt cabs and underframe details and equipment from plasticard. The Hornby coaches have a clear window strip that has the colour printed on it to form the windows. I removed all of these. Cut door pockets out and made new plasticard inserts with the windows cut out of them. One roof lowered to take the pantograph. I don’t remember removing the water take mouldings. It’s quite a big job.

 

[KeithHC]

Something sticks in my head. I believe Cornishmanjez did an n gauge 150 to 317 for his Euston project. Might be worth looking at as well.

 

Keith