The Night Mail

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Morning all,

 

Today is the day of the steam rally, so I’ll try to get some good photos and video. 
 

Dave, very sorry to hear about your dad, hoping he recovers soon. 

[SM42]

I'm back

 

As usual the first victim of any campaign is the plan and luckily the IKEA diversion was abandoned early on.

 

Somehow it got replaced with buying a new fridge freezer.

 

On the bright side this means I now have a beer fridge as the old one is still serviceable, but has been deemed too small.

On the not so bright side I have to clear a space for it.

 

Now to try and get some wagons built.

 

Andy

[jamie92208]

27 minutes ago, SM42 said:

Now to try and get some wagons built.

 

Andy

Are you trying to get a bigger and better avalanche.

 

Jamie

[Happy Hippo]

27 minutes ago, SM42 said:

I'm back

 

As usual the first victim of any campaign is the plan and luckily the IKEA diversion was abandoned early on.

 

Somehow it got replaced with buying a new fridge freezer.

 

On the bright side this means I now have a beer fridge as the old one is still serviceable, but has been deemed too small.

On the not so bright side I have to clear a space for it.

 

Now to try and get some wagons built.

 

Andy

Build some refrigerated vans:  you know where you could keep them!

[SM42]

1 minute ago, jamie92208 said:

Are you trying to get a bigger and better avalanche.

 

Jamie

 

Yes, a bit of  O gauge this time.

 

Need to get some mass in there to increase the momentum.

 

There was a minor avalanche whilst feeding the power cable for the new lamp behind the bench.

 

I managed to catch most of it and in the process invented a new pastime.

 

Wagon juggling.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Build some refrigerated vans:  you know where you could keep them!

 

There are at least 8 of these in the pile as well as some containers.

 

Most appropriate for an avalanche.

 

Andy

[Stubby47]

Hmmmm.....

 

https://www.cornwalllive.com/whats-on/food-drink/quirky-cornwall-cake-shed-chandeliers-5383042

[SM42]

1 minute ago, Stubby47 said:

Hmmmm.....

 

https://www.cornwalllive.com/whats-on/food-drink/quirky-cornwall-cake-shed-chandeliers-5383042

 

The M5 is going to get busy

 

Andy

[Happy Hippo]

22 minutes ago, SM42 said:

 

The M5 is going to get busy

 

Andy

It's quicker to fly and drop in.

[SM42]

4 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

It's quicker to fly and drop in.

 

Depends on what you fly in.

 

Flying in is OK, It's flying back out that may be a problem with all that extra weight.

 

 

 

For no particular reason, and just out of general interest, may I ask

 

How many of you have cursed the name of a kit manufacturer for making you have to work to make a part fit and after all that cursing and swearing have found that maybe, just maybe, you really should have used the correct part rather than trying to make the wrong part fit?

 

 

Andy

[Happy Hippo]

20 minutes ago, SM42 said:

 

Depends on what you fly in.

 

Flying in is OK, It's flying back out that may be a problem with all that extra weight.

 

 

 

For no particular reason, and just out of general interest, may I ask

 

How many of you have cursed the name of a kit manufacturer for making you have to work to make a part fit and after all that cursing and swearing have found that maybe, just maybe, you really should have used the correct part rather than trying to make the wrong part fit?

 

 

Andy

Jump in, run out. (Carrying what cannot be eaten in situ: If the Bear is there, then that's just a pocket full if you're lucky).

 

I am guilty of kit part misappropriation

[simontaylor484]

Likewise but with Airfix aircraft kits 

[PhilJ W]

Go to sleep wearing a tin hat tonight?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/chinese-rocket-live-tracker-latest-24067915#source=push

[Happy Hippo]

We have another walk at Attingham Park booked for a 0900-0930 entry.

 

That means getting up in the middle of the night to get ready to go.

 

I hate doing early.

 

Still, it beats tidying up the bathroom paintwork.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Evening all,

 

Im not sure if I had mentioned it, but I had been in contact with several people who also regularly use BL moguls and asked them what oil they used. The resounding  answer was 460 grade steam oil. So I bought some. It arrived today, was tested several times, and the results were very poor. It seems the engine still not generating enough steam to run properly. 
 

 

If you look at the above video, you can see the sizable exhaust plumage coming from the engine. Mine has a much much smaller plume, meaning I’m guessing that there is less steam in the system. Or it could be a blocked line. However, on the very first time I ever ran the engine, it was about the same as it is now, will run but no power. 
 

Do we have any ideas?

 

Douglas

 

(steam rally photos coming tomorrow, need to be edited down)

Edited May 9, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Stubby47]

18 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

No2 son has come home for a flying visit to meet his new nephew - yes, we became grandparents for the first time last weekend ( officially Nine & Taid).

However, with the announcement the all 800 units are currently grounded, his 08:45 train back to base ( via several changes) might now be replaced by dad's taxi services.

 

 

 

It has been replaced.

 

A leisurely 4 hour drive each way awaits today...

[Happy Hippo]

4 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Evening all,

 

Im not sure if I had mentioned it, but I had been in contact with several people who also regularly use BL moguls and asked them what oil they used. The resounding  answer was 460 grade steam oil. So I bought some. It arrived today, was tested several times, and the results were very poor. It seems the engine still not generating enough steam to run properly. 
 

 

If you look at the above video, you can see the sizable exhaust plumage coming from the engine. Mine has a much much smaller plume, meaning I’m guessing that there is less steam in the system. Or it could be a blocked line. However, on the very first time I ever ran the engine, it was about the same as it is now, will run but no power. 
 

Do we have any ideas?

 

Douglas

 

(steam rally photos coming tomorrow, need to be edited down)

Douglas, what oil were you using before then?

 

 

[Dave Hunt]

We once considered moving to Cornwall and Jill remarked that with my love of Cornish pasties it could be damaging to my waistline. Having seen the Cornish cake report I think that we're I to live there I would soon be rivalling HH in body mass, or if not that much at least PB proportions.

 

Went to see Dad last night at 2130 and stayed until just short of midnight. He was glad to see me but I'm not sure whether it helped him get to sleep. The doctor there has arranged for both of us to be allowed to visit (independently that is) so Jill is going this afternoon and I'll go again tonight.

 

Happy Sunday people.

 

Dave 

[Dave Hunt]

4 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

If you look at the above video, you can see the sizable exhaust plumage coming from the engine. Mine has a much much smaller plume, meaning I’m guessing that there is less steam in the system. Or it could be a blocked line. However, on the very first time I ever ran the engine, it was about the same as it is now, will run but no power. 
 

Do we have any ideas?

 

Douglas

 

I'm expert on small steam engines but it strikes me that your problem can be narrowed down to: lack of steam production and therefore low system pressure; leak(s) in the steam circuit; or restrictions/blockage(s) in the circuit. Your efforts with the burner and fuel would suggest that sufficient heat is being applied so I would tend to discount the first option, leaving leaks and/or restrictions as the probable culprits. It should possible to apply some sort of pressure test to the circuit to expose any leaks but I will leave it to HH and others more knowledgeable than me to suggest how that can be done; similarly, methods of clearing restrictions (maybe caused by limescale build-up?) are the province of those more familiar with the subject.

 

I hope that the above, despite not offering direct advice, can add to the debate. I sympathise with your frustration to get the Mogul performing as it should.

 

Dave

[New Haven Neil]

Can we begin at the beginning with your loco Douglas - does it have a pressure gauge?  Or if not - when running does the safety valve lift? 

 

It either isn't making enough steam, (burner, fuel, boiler dirty - calcification internally) or if it is, it isn't getting to the cylinders correctly (blockage, regulator), or is wasting what does get there (valve setting, reversing valve setting, piston/piston rings/bore wear).

 

These aren't the best running locos in the world when in tip top condition, so it doesn't take much for them to go off colour.

 

Just some points to consider!

[Happy Hippo]

As Neil states, it really could be a number of things that are are having an adverse effect on Douglas's B/L Mogul.

 

I know we did quite a bit of resolution with the vapourizing burner unit, so I suspect that this part is as good as it's going to get unless you take it out and replace it with a 'Queen Mary' burner (3 stack). All this would do is increase the rate at which steam is generated, but some of that improvement is lost due to the design (or lack of) firebox shrouding.

 

Unfortunately, once the steam leaves the boiler there are a few places where you can lose power, and if you are not making enough steam in the first place...

 

So, in order:

 

Do we know what the working pressure of the boiler is?

 

Without a pressure gauge, we don't so fitting one to the boiler, via the whistle plug, and a banjo union would give us a rough idea of what the real working pressure of the loco currently is.

 

I don't know what these are supposed to work at, but I'd suggest around 30 psi would be about the maximum.  If the loco is not making that and the safety valve is lifting early then you can adjust it to increase the pressure.  You might find that the SV is leaking, so you are wasting steam to atmosphere.  Because of the heat coming up from the burners, the loss of steam might not be easily visible.

 

Further down the  steam line you still need to check to see if anything is leaking:  I know we have already been down this route and we found a leak in the lubricator area. Removing the boiler and connecting the steam line that enters the cylinder block to an air source, and putting the chassis into a bucket/bowl of water will soon highlight any leaks.

 

If you can remove the cylinders individually from the loco, then you can give them a 'snap test'. 

 

Remove the valve, push the piston rod all the way into the block and plug all the other orifices in the block (tape with duct tape?)

 

Now pull the piston rod back, and when you release it,  the vacuum created inside the bore will snap the piston back into it's original position.

 

If it doesn't then you have  leaking pistons.... which will gobble up power faster than a rat running up a gutter.

 

Returning to the pipework, and lubrication... If you have been using motor oil as a lubricant it may have carbonised in the pipework and will be strangling the steam supply.  This will give you the odd symptom of the loco blowing off but little getting into the cylinders.

 

As Neil has also pointed out, these locos are not the best runners and once they are old and worn, any of these factors or a combination of them, will render the loco powerless.

 

You have to be systematic in your approach to sorting out the steaming issues:

 

Start at one end of the operating cycle and work through from burner to exhaust.

 

At each stage check for leakage.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Happy Hippo

[Florence Locomotive Works]

5 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Douglas, what oil were you using before then?

 

 

Wilesco oil, I think it’s around 260 grade so fairly runny, but I don’t know the exact grade as it appears to be a trade secret.

[Happy Hippo]

41 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Wilesco oil, I think it’s around 260 grade so fairly runny, but I don’t know the exact grade as it appears to be a trade secret.

That should not be a problem as it's formulated to run with steam

[Florence Locomotive Works]

5 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

I'm expert on small steam engines but it strikes me that your problem can be narrowed down to: lack of steam production and therefore low system pressure; leak(s) in the steam circuit; or restrictions/blockage(s) in the circuit. Your efforts with the burner and fuel would suggest that sufficient heat is being applied so I would tend to discount the first option, leaving leaks and/or restrictions as the probable culprits. It should possible to apply some sort of pressure test to the circuit to expose any leaks but I will leave it to HH and others more knowledgeable than me to suggest how that can be done; similarly, methods of clearing restrictions (maybe caused by limescale build-up?) are the province of those more familiar with the subject.

 

I hope that the above, despite not offering direct advice, can add to the debate. I sympathise with your frustration to get the Mogul performing as it should.

 

Dave

Thank you Dave,

 

I just checked the boiler for any buildup of detritus, and none was found.

 

 

5 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

Can we begin at the beginning with your loco Douglas - does it have a pressure gauge?  Or if not - when running does the safety valve lift? 

 

It either isn't making enough steam, (burner, fuel, boiler dirty - calcification internally) or if it is, it isn't getting to the cylinders correctly (blockage, regulator), or is wasting what does get there (valve setting, reversing valve setting, piston/piston rings/bore wear).

 

These aren't the best running locos in the world when in tip top condition, so it doesn't take much for them to go off colour.

 

Just some points to consider!

Thank you Neil,

 

The loco does have a pressure gauge now, however it’s a 0-100 psi one as nobody seems to sell anything smaller. The needle does lift off the stop when building steam, however in previous runs it immediately drops to zero when the regulator is open. When running the sv does not appear to be bowing off. As it’s quite old and the surfaces aren’t exactly flat, there is the odd bubble that appears but nothing I would call a leak. 
 

2 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

As Neil states, it really could be a number of things that are are having an adverse effect on Douglas's B/L Mogul.

 

I know we did quite a bit of resolution with the vapourizing burner unit, so I suspect that this part is as good as it's going to get unless you take it out and replace it with a 'Queen Mary' burner (3 stack). All this would do is increase the rate at which steam is generated, but some of that improvement is lost due to the design (or lack of) firebox shrouding.

 

Unfortunately, once the steam leaves the boiler there are a few places where you can lose power, and if you are not making enough steam in the first place...

 

So, in order:

 

Do we know what the working pressure of the boiler is?

 

Without a pressure gauge, we don't so fitting one to the boiler, via the whistle plug, and a banjo union would give us a rough idea of what the real working pressure of the loco currently is.

 

I don't know what these are supposed to work at, but I'd suggest around 30 psi would be about the maximum.  If the loco is not making that and the safety valve is lifting early then you can adjust it to increase the pressure.  You might find that the SV is leaking, so you are wasting steam to atmosphere.  Because of the heat coming up from the burners, the loss of steam might not be easily visible.

 

Further down the  steam line you still need to check to see if anything is leaking:  I know we have already been down this route and we found a leak in the lubricator area. Removing the boiler and connecting the steam line that enters the cylinder block to an air source, and putting the chassis into a bucket/bowl of water will soon highlight any leaks.

 

If you can remove the cylinders individually from the loco, then you can give them a 'snap test'. 

 

Remove the valve, push the piston rod all the way into the block and plug all the other orifices in the block (tape with duct tape?)

 

Now pull the piston rod back, and when you release it,  the vacuum created inside the bore will snap the piston back into it's original position.

 

If it doesn't then you have  leaking pistons.... which will gobble up power faster than a rat running up a gutter.

 

Returning to the pipework, and lubrication... If you have been using motor oil as a lubricant it may have carbonised in the pipework and will be strangling the steam supply.  This will give you the odd symptom of the loco blowing off but little getting into the cylinders.

 

As Neil has also pointed out, these locos are not the best runners and once they are old and worn, any of these factors or a combination of them, will render the loco powerless.

 

You have to be systematic in your approach to sorting out the steaming issues:

 

Start at one end of the operating cycle and work through from burner to exhaust.

 

At each stage check for leakage.

 

 

Thank you Richard,

 

Working pressure is probably around 14 psi, as the SV lifts at 16. The boilers were tested at the factory to IRC 45 psi.

 

However, as my gauge is a 0-100 psi type, it immediately drops to zero when the regulator is opened.

 

A leak on the starboard side cylinder end cap was found, and this has been rectified. I found it using ye olde dish soap method, and it didn’t seem to serious, just a mildly loud wheeze. Both pistons have been snap test and they did indeed snap. All the other pipework was tested with dish soap and water and no leaks were found. 

Motor oil has never been used until he engine, and if the previous owner used any, it will hopefully have been flushed away as the engine was flushed with citric degreaser. However when I had the internal pipe of the lubricator out it shouted no signs of carbon. 
 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Right, steam rally time.

 

Below is a Case (J. I. Case was a profiling producer of traction engines and threshing machines in America, as was Rumley) probably 16 HP agri engine which has just finished a plowing run. All engines unless specified are for agricultural use.

 

 

 

Above we see a large locomotive style boiler, not used for some years. The tubes were in quite good condition. 
 

 

Above is a Worthington duplex pump, of which they probably had 12. It was in the Corliss powerhouse, video of that will be coming soon. 
 

 

Above is the main bearing on the dynamo side of the Corliss. 
 

 

Above is the piston side of a Rumley traction engine. Nice thing was this, still had its original paint as most do.

 

 

Above we see a 1/3 scale Case, a big Case, what’s probably a Russell behind that and then another case. There’s also another Russell (another builder, less common) hiding behind the tree. They are shy animals. 
 

 

Above: Now the big stuff. All the smoke is coming from the second largest traction engine on earth, the “Case 110 hp.” It was being dyno tested, where I got some video of it losing its belt! The next few photos show it. This is an American road locomotive, designed for haulage. 
 

 

 

Below is another small Case engine .

 

The next few photos are of a big unrestored Rumley Oil Pull kerosene tractor. These are like traction engines but with massive kerosene burning twin cylinder engines. 
 

The first photo shows the cab, which is 3 feet off the ground. You are looking at the cylinder heads.

 


The next photo is of the flywheel clutch assembly, with the radiator off the to right. 
 

 

Below is part of the gearing for the tractor. 
 

 

Douglas

[Happy Hippo]

If the SV is lifting at 16psi indicated, that's only 2lbs above atmosphere, so I'm not surprised the pressure gauge bottoms out when you open the regulator.

 

The odd bubble from the SV is leakage*, and you can get away with it using higher pressures, but at really low pressure, every little blow, however slight, is a real drain on the power.

 

When you open the regulator the steam has to heat up the passages (pipes, lubricator and cylinders) to prevent the steam condensing. with only 16psi available, you are asking a lot to get two cylinders going and then to make the loco pull a train.  There is a big difference between that and running a single cylinder stationary engine.

 

I'd suggest you strip the SV down and see if you can get a better seal.  A new 'o' ring may help.  You could also give the SV  a tweak by tightening up the spring just slightly and see if a rise to about 20psi improves performance.  If it does then you will have solved the problem.

 

I know you are not a fool, but I have to remind you to remember that you must not completely compress the spring.  Such an action renders the SV inoperative and it's unable to relieve the boiler when required.

 

* It depends on the design.  Where there is a well in the SV casing that collects condensate, the bubble is caused as the water is brought up to the boil again.  Mamods are notorious for bubbling SVs, where the 'seal' is just an 'o' ring. seal is something it doesn't do well without other properly machined surfaces within the SV assembly.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Happy Hippo