Steam Engine for long freight trains (n gauge)

[-RF-]

Hello,

 

I am from Germany and have a rather large collection of German n gauge models. However, as a kid, I watched Thomas the Tank Engine which kinda got me hooked on British steam engines.

 

Some years ago I visited Ireland and went shopping in Dublin. I got myself a GraFar "Duchess of Norfolk" as a souvenir, and I admit that I mostly bought it because it was blue. Only later I found out that it is from the same era as my German rolling stock (German era 3a - from 1949 to 1956ish). Back home I bought some coaches for the engine and it was nice to have a British train running along my German trains. 2018 and 2019 I again visited Wales, Scotland and Ireland and brought back a Class 08, a Jinty, Grange Class and some Wagons, and this time I looked at the logos and made sure they were all from era 4, so that they would fit with the Duchess and also with the rest of my collection. Originally I just planned on having a short goods train just for fun, but then things got slightly out of hand and now I have large box of wagons and am looking for an engine that could haul those.

 

I am a fan of long trains and desperately wating for hattons to finish their LMS Garratt, but in the meantime I am looking for a steam engine to haul such a long train. I have almost zero knowledge about British engines, so I am here to ask what engine I could use. The Jinty is obviously underpowered, and the Grange was - as Wikipedia says - mostly used for perishable goods, so not for long, slow goods trains. From what I read the 9F would be suitable, but it was built after the war. But what engines would have been used before the 9F went into service?

 

Kind Regards,

Rico

[Steamport Southport]

The LMS 8F 2-8-0 would probably be your best bet. Would go well with the others.

 

 

https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/lms-stanier-8f-48608-br-black-(early-emblem)/372-162

 

 

 

Jason

[A Murphy]

You could also look at the Dapol 28/38xx GWR 2-8-0? Graham Farish's new Stanier 2-8-0 is very close and is looking very good indeed.

 

Alastair

[NCB]

For general purpose heavy freights 2-8-0 locomotives were quite common. For example, assuming this is N scale:

LMS: Stanier 8F 2-8-0 - Farish have a model due shortly

GWR: Churchward 28XX class or Collett 38XX class, 2-8-0 (Dapol)

Other: WD 2-8-0 built during WWII and used widely afterwards (Farish have a model)

 

There were slightly smaller mixed traffic locomotives, used equally for passenger and freight:

LMS: Stanier Class 5 4-6-0

GWR: 43XX 2-6-0

GWR: Grange 4-6-0 This wasn't just perishables, it could be used for most things and was intended to replace the 43XX

 

There are others, but I'm not sure what is currently available in N.

 

Nigel

[-RF-]

Hello,

 

thank you very much for all the (very quick) replies. I found the 38XX from a German vendor (https://www.dm-toys.de/de/produktdetails/Dapol_2S-009-006.html) which reduces postage cost. Maybe they will also list the LMS 8F when it is available.

 

Kind Regards,

Rico

[cypherman]

How about a 9F 2-10-0. I remember having a Minitrix one many years ago. I believe that Dapol may still make one. Ypu can still get both via Ebay.

Edited July 4, 2020 by cypherman

[DCB]

You would not normally find a blue Duchess and a Grange running on the same tracks, except around Shrewsbury and Crewe stations, but 60 wagon trains behind a Grange were not unusual, they were employed on all sorts of goods trains from slow coal drags to the fastest fully vacuum fitted goods, and were timed at up to 90MPH on passenger services. 

Do you actually plan trains longer than 60 wagons?  If not a Grange or a Black 5 would be entirely suitable

The 28XX hauled 100 wagon trains on occasion, but in model form the 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 classes being similar weight tend to have similar haulage capacity.   A Stanier 8F should be an ideal counterpart for the Duchess, but not the Garretts

If LMS Garretts and Duchesses worked on the same lines at all it was a very rare occurrence. The Duchesses worked north from London Euston to Crewe, Liverpool, Carlisle, Perth and even Glasgow on the West Coast main line, while Garretts clanked slowly down the Midland lines from Derbyshire towards London St Pancras, and even Birmingham and Bristol so their paths would seldom cross and when they did they normally crossed at right angles.

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, cypherman said:

How about a 9F 2-10-0. I remember having a Minitrix one many years ago. I believe that Dapol may still make one. Ypu can still get both via Ebay.

Was about to mention the BR standard 9F; introduced 1954 so just within your time frame.  Don't buy the Minitrix version; it uses a Kreigslok chassis which has wheel spacing nowhere near a 9F's!  

[-RF-]

9 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

You would not normally find a blue Duchess and a Grange running on the same tracks, except around Shrewsbury and Crewe stations

 

9 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

If LMS Garretts and Duchesses worked on the same lines at all it was a very rare occurrence.

 

10 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

so their paths would seldom cross and when they did they normally crossed at right angles.

 

Thanks for the info. I do keep an eye on the timeline, but not so much on the geographical region. If I ever start my own layout these engines might even have to work on the same line as my German engines. (You may now judge me). However, I am also part of a module building group that is scattered all over Germany. We meet two to three times a year to run looong trains, enjoy each others works and trains and generally just have fun. It is not unsual to have a mix of all eras on the tracks and everyone is fine with it.

 

In this picture you can see my Grange with a goods train, on a module that is based on Thuringian (middle German) landscape, set in the 60s in East Germany. The train passes a Diesel engine from West Germany, while in the upper station a DMU in a livery from the Deutsche Reichsbahn waits.

 

Nevertheless - thanks for the information! And by the way, even though the British and the continental models have a different scale (1:148 vs. 1:160), the models do not look odd when next to each other. The fact, that the British models are slightly larger regarding the scale is canceled out by the smaller loading gauge of those models.

10 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

but 60 wagon trains behind a Grange were not unusual, they were employed on all sorts of goods trains from slow coal drags to the fastest fully vacuum fitted goods, and were timed at up to 90MPH on passenger services. 

That is good to know.

 

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Was about to mention the BR standard 9F; introduced 1954 so just within your time frame.  Don't buy the Minitrix version; it uses a Kreigslok chassis which has wheel spacing nowhere near a 9F's!  

Thanks! I actually have three of the Minitrix models (DR class 52), and they are very robust and strong engines. However, Minitrix also did not bother with the cylinders when using that chassis for the 9F.

[Steamport Southport]

The Garratts were shedded at Wellingborough and Toton. Both of which had dozens of 8Fs.

 

Useful website for where locomotives were based and their general details here. This is the list for Toton as an example.

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=555

 

As for Duchesses and Granges being together they were both seen regularly at Chester. Duchesses working to Holyhead on trains such as The Irish Mail.

 

 

 

Jason

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

17 hours ago, NCB said:

... WD 2-8-0 built during WWII and used widely afterwards (Farish have a model)...

That's available, unlike the Stanier 8F which is expected soon. Best RTR UK N gauge model I have yet seen for both appearance and performance, and it will have worked in Germany too...

[Steamport Southport]

Jinties definitely did. One was still in Berlin in 1953.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/141537-lms-coach-in-russia/page/2/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD_ex-LMS_Fowler_Class_3F

 

 

 

Jason

[-RF-]

Today I bought the July issue of "Steam Days" and as it happens they have some very nice pictures of Halls and Granges hauling long freight trains.

[Edge]

For your ‘Jinty’ loco, it may actually be possible to run it alongside your German locos as a perfectly accurate engine. Several went to France with the British expeditionary force in 1939 and I believe that these were almost all taken and used by the Germans (I did hear that the German engine crews were very fond of them) and stayed in west German for a considerable time post-war. They probably didn’t haul trains through the German countryside but a little modellers license should see to that

 

In answer to your question, there is no more iconic British freight loco than the Stanier 8f. They were all over Britain at one point or another and were extremely useful engines (to quote the fat controller). The WD 2-8-0 and Great Western 28xx class would also be great choices, but it would be the 8f for me if you are looking to model a typical British train.

 

EDIT: found a little more info on the Jinty locos. Most ended up in French railways, but one was photographed with Wehrmacht number and markings at Berlin Tempelhof in 1953:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD_ex-LMS_Fowler_Class_3F

 

https://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/read.php?017,8160299

 

Edit 2: Apologies to steamport Southport, I should have read his post before starting the typing. I’m too far gone to delete it all now though...

Edited July 22, 2020 by Edge

[-RF-]

Better said something twice than never! :-)

 

What is interesting about the Jinty in Berlin is the "Bremsuntersuchung Cottbus 5. Mai 1944". This means it was even farther east than Berlin, "Bremsuntersuchung" would translate to "brake system check". For everyone not familiar with German geography: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cottbus/@51.9338411,13.7406902,8.56z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x4708744259954a5f:0x50d42fb5e07fad3a!8m2!3d51.7563108!4d14.3328679

 

21 minutes ago, Edge said:

(I did hear that the German engine crews were very fond of them)

It is always very interesting what foreign crews say about foreign engines. After WW2 14 engines of the German class 44 stayed in France and 226 more were directly delivered to the SNCF. And while the steam engines designed Chapelon are without a doubt masterpieces it is said that French crewes loved the sturdiness and easy handling of the German engines.

Also after the reunification of Germany the brand new Eastern German class 212/112 were delivered to (former) West Germany. And then something interesting happened... those drivers who had NOT seen the driver's cab of the engines did everything they could to not have to drive them - those who had seen the cab did everything they could to be allow to drive them. But this gets way off topic ;-)

[DCB]

It's a shame a few of those class 44s were not brought to the UK and a lot of the WDs left in Germany post WW2. . The Great Central was to European gauge and they could have revolutionised the Great  "Wind Cutters" back in 1946 ish  and smashed a big hole in the economic arguments for electrifying the Woodhead route.  A few 01 pacifics would have Flying Scotchman and her mates look a bit tame on Maryebone - Manchester and showed Riddles etc what a well designed Pacific looks like.

[The Johnster]

It was and it wasn't; civil engineering clearances on the London Extension were to what is now UIC specifications, but platform clearances were not, so Kriegsloks could not have run through stations though could have cleared beneath bridges and tunnels.  The M,S,&L was built to the normal UK Stephensonian loading gauge and Kriegsloks would have been worse than useless in Woodhead tunnels unless you could have got up enough of a run to enlarge the tunnel bores...

 

A 'what if' would have been the extension of the 1.500VDC scheme to the London Extension, as the clearances were probably already adequate.

[DCB]

Thanks guys, a 44 is a 3 cylinder beastie, the 50s and 52s were the 2 cylinder 2-10-0s, the 44 was a higher powered loco altogether but it looks narrower over cylinders than the 50 (or 52) and I would love to get a drawing and see how it compares to the GC loading gauge.   The French built some 44s and apparently scrapped a lot of part built class 44s post war before we even started building 9Fs.  

[Joseph_Pestell]

13 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

Thanks guys, a 44 is a 3 cylinder beastie, the 50s and 52s were the 2 cylinder 2-10-0s, the 44 was a higher powered loco altogether but it looks narrower over cylinders than the 50 (or 52) and I would love to get a drawing and see how it compares to the GC loading gauge.   The French built some 44s and apparently scrapped a lot of part built class 44s post war before we even started building 9Fs.  

 

When I visited Germany towards the end of steam, I was quite surprised how much the 50s/52s were used on quite light freight. Your post perhaps explains it. They were not designed for very heavy trains but to spread the locomotive weight and get a light axle loading???

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 23/07/2020 at 01:33, Lantavian said:

 

It wasn't. That's a myth, I'm afraid.

 

Other lines in GB had more generous gauges than the GCR, and besides, a common European gauge wasn't actually agreed until a decade or so after the GCR mainline to London was completed.

 

 

A double-myth even. There is no single "European gauge".

[DCB]

33 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

When I visited Germany towards the end of steam, I was quite surprised how much the 50s/52s were used on quite light freight. Your post perhaps explains it. They were not designed for very heavy trains but to spread the locomotive weight and get a light axle loading???

The 50/52 was the standard heavy freight loco as the 44 was considered unnecessarily complex when designed in the 1920s.  Series production commenced in 1938 when (planned) heavy wartime freight required something more powerful than the class 50/52.  

[Steven B]

Union Mills has a range of inside cylinder tender engines which is worth a look at. They're not as detailed as current Farish or Dapol models but they'll out haul anything else from those ranges.

 

Steven B.

[-RF-]

On 24/07/2020 at 14:23, Steven B said:

Union Mills has a range of inside cylinder tender engines which is worth a look at. They're not as detailed as current Farish or Dapol models but they'll out haul anything else from those ranges.

I have seen some of those on ebay but I could not find a website or anything. Do you have a link or a shop, where the models are listed?

[Steven B]

Union Mills is a one man band operating out of a small workshop on the Isle of Man. They don't have a website. The N Gauge Forum has a section dedicated to their models:

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?board=75.0

 

Steven B.

[-RF-]

Yesterday I received a package with a G2 0-8-0 from Union Mills. I really like this engine and it is amazing how strong it is. On my kitchen table I tested it with 80 wagons and I am very sure I could add even more.

 

Which leads me to one more question... how many wagons could this engine haul? (Yes, I know, this is a classic example of "It depends...")