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Apologies if this has been asked before, but I am puzzling a bit over the 'as built' livery of the Class 442 Wessex Electrics.

 

Researching through early photographs seems to show the units painted all over Silver White with  blue and red bands. Other references and later photographs indicate that they were painted all over Silver Grey with white, blue and red bands. 

 

I have bought some Precision Paints Silver Grey, which I was informed was the correct shade, but looks far too dark in comparison to photographs. Now I realise photographs can be misleading in terms of lighting, colour reproduction etc., but it has left me a bit confused.

 

So, the question is, does anyone know what the original as built livery was? Was it all white and the grey added later? Is the recommended Silver Grey actually the right shade, or should it be some lighter shade?

 

Any help would be gratefully appreciated.

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I'd say Silver-white. It was very light indeed. Hopefully attached a 1991 shot of mine below, taken near Walton on Thames.

 

John.

 

P.S. looking at the picture, I'm wondering if "silver-grey" is the colour on the front around the cab windows?

A760043_copyweb.jpg

Edited by John Tomlinson
added P.S.
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I haven't scanned a lot of my slides from this period, but used to take these whilst waiting for a 50 to come along! Another couple from 1991, at Potbridge and Worting, both in straight sun over the shoulder light. The surroundings show how light the colour was, I think they were newish at this time.

 

 

A727013web.jpg

A753006web.jpg

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I lived in Southampton in the 1980s, and the introduction of these trains was a shock of modernity — I guess they were the equivalents of HSTs elsewhere. Such lovely trains. And they have never looked better than in that original livery. 
 

Paul

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3 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

I haven't scanned a lot of my slides from this period, but used to take these whilst waiting for a 50 to come along! Another couple from 1991, at Potbridge and Worting, both in straight sun over the shoulder light. The surroundings show how light the colour was, I think they were newish at this time.

 

 

A727013web.jpg

A753006web.jpg

 

Thanks for your response John. Your two excellent photographs show my dilemma. In the first one, the lower band looks almost white, similar to the roof. In the second photo, I'd say it was definitely light grey. The Precision Paints Silver Grey is a lot darker than that, so maybe Rail Grey might be nearer? Or something inbetween?

 

The same dilemma can be seen on original livery Class 319's. Difficult to work out what's going on there too. Bachmann's latest 159's have a similar livery, but the grey looks way too dark.

 

I see that your photographs were taken in 1991, some three years after introduction. Where they white abd had the grey added sometime in that three years?

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I see what you mean. In the second (lower) photo you can actually see a thin white band below the lower red stripe, and this contrasts with the grey on the rest of the lower panel. That is also visible in the photo on the first post I made of the shot near Walton on Thames. It doesn't look to be the case on the Potbridge picture, but I've looked closely at the scanned Tif and in fact it is, also on a shot of another unit at Wimbledon taken the same time.

 

The Potbridge picture is from January 1991, the other two in August/ September of that year. You may be right that painting of the lower panel took place prior to that time, perhaps it was to lessen the impact of dust and dirt from running, if indeed they were white at all in the beginning?

 

John.

 

 

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Silver white all over, Railmatch and Phoenix both do it. Not silver grey. 
 

The gaps between the red and the blue NSE bands are ‘proper’ white though, including a thin white highlight around the lower red. 

 

Edit: the lower light in this photo shows it well:

442406

 

Edited by njee20
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4 hours ago, njee20 said:

Silver white all over, Railmatch and Phoenix both do it. Not silver grey. 
 

The gaps between the red and the blue NSE bands are ‘proper’ white though, including a thin white highlight around the lower red. 

 

Edit: the lower light in this photo shows it well:

442406

 

 

Thanks for that reply and photo and to Roy's links too.

 

I think I see the problem now. I'd been informed originally that the whole white areas of the body were Silver White.  This is how I have painted my model so far and it didn't look quite right. The bit I was missing is that the areas between the red bands are 'proper white'. That would give the right amount of subtle distinction between shades and the slight grey tinge visible on certain photographs!

 

So, by 'proper white', do we mean just a plain white, or would it perhaps be Rail White? I'm also guessing that this is the same colour/shade combination on the Class 319's?

 

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I have the benefit of modelling in N gauge, for which Fox do decals for the whole NSE livery, including the white, so I don’t honestly know. I’d say rail white would be a good starting place, yes. And yes, it’s the same as the 319s. 

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On 11/09/2020 at 18:53, njee20 said:

Silver white all over, Railmatch and Phoenix both do it. Not silver grey. 

 

Been looking on both websites and the only silver white I can find is Phoenix Great Western Trains Silver White(P242), is this right colour or is there an NSE specific silver white? Or are Phoenix calling it NSE white (P178)?

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Mmm, that's odd, sure I've got some from both Phoenix and Railmatch, but I agree I can't see either! I'll try and have a look later on!


I wouldn't be confident the NSE white isn't the 'plain' white needed for the bands; given most units didn't use the silver white.

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I used Phoenix P178 NSE Silver White for the main body colour, thinking this was the correct shade. I have compared a Phoenix plain white, Phoenix P976 for the white bands. It looks as if it would give the right difference in shades, but I'm not convinced.

 

As it happened, I picked up the latest issue of RM today which featured an article that included some Wessex Electrics. Now I know printed reproduction photographs can be misleading, but their shade look like that used on the Intercity Executive/Swallow livery. Not sure of the paint colour or number for that. However, could that be what was used and NSE Silver White P178 for the white bands?

Edited by Wagpnmaster
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Thanks for that photograph Ceptic, it shows the light grey very clearly. 

 

So, what grey should I use? As already stated, Phoenix Silver Grey looks too dark. Maybe the light grey as used on the lower band of the Railfreight Sector triple grey livery? Or something else, like Humbrol light grey? Any ideas?

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You keep referring to the fact you have used silver grey which is too dark, but people in this thread have said that Silver White is the correct colour. So I would suggest you use a tin of that, however your problem may be finding some...

 

For example Railmatch Silver White is their code 240 in enamel. Seems to be out of production. And I can't see an equivalent on Phoenix's website....

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35 minutes ago, Bedlington North said:

You keep referring to the fact you have used silver grey which is too dark, but people in this thread have said that Silver White is the correct colour. So I would suggest you use a tin of that, however your problem may be finding some...

 

For example Railmatch Silver White is their code 240 in enamel. Seems to be out of production. And I can't see an equivalent on Phoenix's website....

 

I think that is the point, Wagpnmaster cant get it and is asking advice on an alternative.

Roy

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13 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

I think that is the point, Wagpnmaster cant get it and is asking advice on an alternative.

Roy

Unless they're trying to match existing stock exactly then just mix it by eye.

Edited by spamcan61
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1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

I think that is the point, Wagpnmaster cant get it and is asking advice on an alternative.

Roy

No it isnt the point. He has repeatedly quoted using silver grey which he says is too dark, which it would be seeing as the right colour is silver white.

 

If he was able to locate a tin of silver white either as old stock or someone had some then he would be sorted...

 

So it would seem worthwhile him asking or looking for the correct colour first...

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11 hours ago, Bedlington North said:

You keep referring to the fact you have used silver grey which is too dark, but people in this thread have said that Silver White is the correct colour. So I would suggest you use a tin of that, however your problem may be finding some...

 

For example Railmatch Silver White is their code 240 in enamel. Seems to be out of production. And I can't see an equivalent on Phoenix's website....

 

I think there may be some misunderstanding here in the nature of my question. The question is, what colour or shade is the body of an 'as built' Class 442 Wessex Electric? I have been led to believe previously that it was Silver White. I have painted the first driving car in this colour, Phoenix P178 in fact. I have added the blue and red stripes and painted the cab fronts yellow and dark grey. You can see this in the photograph of my incomplete model below.

 

So, having done this, I have looked at the model and found that it looked wrong to me. Examining various photographs on the web, it seems the main body colour has a light grey look about it and not Silver White as I have painted my model. In seeking the correct shade, I posted this thread on the forum in the hope that more knowledgeable people than I would be able to help in identifying the correct shade to use. It has been suggested that the shade might be Silver Grey. I have a pot of this, Phoenix P180, but when held up to the body, it looks far too dark in comparison to the photographs. You can see this from the images that some contributors have kindly posted. In fact, it seems only just grey and in some images appears almost white. The white lining between the lower red stripe and lower body is what gives it away as not being white though. So the question is, what is it? Can anyone suggest a shade, preferably with a code number? I am struggling to complete the model because of this, so any suggestions are gratefully received.

Class-442-1st-Paint].gif

Edited by Wagpnmaster
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Looking at an article I published in Live Rail (SEG mag) in 1990, I did the NSE silver grey sides and the roof using Humbrol matt 147 grey paint for this colour. Cab ends I used Precision Railfreight Flint grey. This was a long time ago of course.

Cheers.

K-021 Mo 1989.jpg

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2 hours ago, Lyddrail said:

Looking at an article I published in Live Rail (SEG mag) in 1990, I did the NSE silver grey sides and the roof using Humbrol matt 147 grey paint for this colour. Cab ends I used Precision Railfreight Flint grey. This was a long time ago of course.

Cheers.

K-021 Mo 1989.jpg

 

Thanks for that Lyddrail and the attached photo of your excellent model. I had looked at Humbrol 147 wondering if it would be about the right shade as it is a lot lighter than the Phoenix Silver Grey paint I have. It seems that it might be just about right. The only other option I could see was BR Rail Grey, but that is possibly too light!

 

 

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