Hornby Midland 4P 4-4-0 Compound Upgrade

[ianLMS]

I recently purchased a GEM kit of the Midland 4-4-0 Compound to compliment my recently built Ratio Sheffield suburban coach set. 

In haste, i purchased the Comet chassis kit. Had i have consulted the pages on RMWeb, i would have realised the chassis was meant to replace the Hornby one, and not suitable for scale size kits. The Hornby has a wheelbase of 40mm as oppose to the correct size of 38mm which the GEM kit required. 

Not wanting to waste the Comet chassis, i decided to get a Hornby body and upgrade it. I will get an Alan Gibson set of mainframes for the GEM kit so that wont go to waste either.

 

So, for a huge sum of £7.50, i obtained a body of 1072 from Ebay and set about it with my razor saw and micro chisel.

 

Most of the moulded parts (handrails, boiler bands, ramsbottom safety valves etc) were removed along with the steps, lubricater, buffers, injectors, chimney and dome.

I have replacement parts in my spares box and have set about converting it to a Fowler one which has a diffenent chimney, fowler style dome, ross-pop safety valves and 6'9" wheels as the main difference as well as it being left hand drive. 

 

Hopefully in the end i will have a half decent looking Fowler LMS Compound.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by ianLMS

[ianLMS]

Made a bit more progress last night. Finshed the injector assembly, fitted the dome, chimney and a couple of hand rails.

 

[Blandford1969]

3 hours ago, ianLMS said:

Made a bit more progress last night. Finshed the injector assembly, fitted the dome, chimney and a couple of hand rails.

 

 

Its coming along really well. and shows what can be done really well. Look forward to seeing your build of the chassis.  Did you have to do much to the ejector or was it as it came? 

[ianLMS]

The main body of the injector was an alan gibson part. I added the pipe (1mm rod) and the top part of the injector using off-cuts. Its a little crude but wont be noticeable once painted.

Edited September 15, 2020 by ianLMS

[Compound2632]

The Hornby Compound came out in the early 80s, I think, along with the Schools, County, and Shire / Hunt, all sharing the same chassis block of course. The post-grouping 4-4-0s were both 10'0" coupled wheelbase locomotives; the biggest distortion was on the County.

 

EDIT - looking at photos of the Hornby County, I think I've been unjust. The model does seem to capture the legs-all-behind look of the prototype, so it must have had a different chassis block. Even less excuse for the extra 6" on the Compound then. And the less said about the tender the better.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Compound2632

[BernardTPM]

From memory, the chassis block had two positions for one of the axles giving 8' 6" or 10' options.

[GarrettTheThief]

I'd love to get hold of one of these kits. I've only been able to get hold of Hornby's 1980's representation and where you can make minor improvements to the front part (which I've doing for practice), the tender is a different story! My understanding from other threads here is its disproportionate size was to house the chonky ringfield motor.

 

I look forward to seeing how this turns out.

[ianLMS]

34 minutes ago, GarrettTheThief said:

I'd love to get hold of one of these kits. I've only been able to get hold of Hornby's 1980's representation and where you can make minor improvements to the front part (which I've doing for practice), the tender is a different story! My understanding from other threads here is its disproportionate size was to house the chonky ringfield motor.

 

I look forward to seeing how this turns out.

 

For this project, I will probably get a Comet Fowler tender kit from Wizard and build one. The GEM kit has a WM one already included, but may end up using a Comet chassis rather than the WM included in the kit. 

 

What modifications do you make to the front end BTW? 

[GarrettTheThief]

35 minutes ago, ianLMS said:

 

For this project, I will probably get a Comet Fowler tender kit from Wizard and build one. The GEM kit has a WM one already included, but may end up using a Comet chassis rather than the WM included in the kit. 

 

What modifications do you make to the front end BTW? 

 

I'll keep a look out for the tender kit, which can hopefully be adapted for the Midland 1000. I've got my eye on a Comet chassis kit to capture that extra detail sorely missing. How do you intend on motorising your loco?

Sorry, by "front end", I was referring to the entire boiler! I'd woken up not long ago and couldn't find the right word...

 

I borrowed from an Americom(?) static model (one of these) that was gathering dust. It only set me back £15-£20 all that time ago and it was falling apart anyway. I noticed some of the parts and proportions are closer to the prototype. I swapped out:

• The steps, which had broken off on the Hornby model anyway)
• The dome (the Hornby model doesn't have the correct shape for the Midland 1000 as it doesn't slope outwards towards the base)
• The hatch on the cab roof
• Various inner cab components
• Coupling hook/vacuum pipe on the buffer beam
• Lamps (which are completely absent on the Hornby model); they have that moulded plastic look but still drastically improve the Hornby model with a touch of crimson lake and silver paint

It still misses some of the finer rivet detail on the frame which I can't easily replicate without taking a knife to the static model, undertaking some serious graft and risking irreparable damage to the Hornby body. Other missing details on the firebox and cab were replicated with thin plasticard, metal wire or brass components. I'm unsure I have the correct whistle, the part I bought looked close to what I saw on prototype photos and I made some minor modifications to it.

 

I did consider fitting the Hornby ringfield motor into the Americom tender, but there's no easy or possible way to do it, especially without making the coal pile higher. I decided to work on improving the Hornby tender instead but given the issues with its base proportions, I don't think I'll ever be happy enough with the result, even though it's a marked improvement.

 

I purchased the Hornby model some time ago without understanding its problems and because I desperately wanted a RTR version in my collection on my limited budget; my MR venture was only intended to be a casual side-interest after all. I ended up undertaking this project to practise my crafting skills for my more serious ventures and it's been a fun ride so far.

[ianLMS]

Brassmasters and Wizard (Comet) do various versions of tenders so I am sure you will find the right one to fit the loco you are building.

 

The motor will probably be a High-Level Coreless affair to go with one of their splendid gearboxes. Failing that, I still have a couple of old Mashima's or a Mitsui i can use. I run DCC as well so it will have a Zimo chip. The issue I find with DCC is that they are very sensitive and require really good pick-ups, so on this one, I may try the live chassis method and protect the chip as much as possible from shorts. 

 

The changes you mention are similar to the modifications I am making, although I am keeping the Hornby boiler. I have added lamp irons, although they are just filed brass rod and not the proper angle type. Better than nothing at all though.

 

The cab hatch might have to come off though as it is a bit chunky and can replace it with brass or styrene sheet. The loco will have proper screw couplings and hoses fitted as well.  I haven't decided whether or not to paint the Hornby backhead, or put a new one in. Once I get a driver and fireman in there, it wont really be that noticeable. I have already halved the thickness and will glaze it once I have finished painting it.

 

Feel free to add pics of your work on here as well. Hopefully we can feed of each other and get both loco's looking a lot better than they did originally.

[Compound2632]

This is starting to sound like making a silk purse out of a sow's ear!

[Steamport Southport]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The Hornby Compound came out in the early 80s, I think, along with the Schools, County, and Shire / Hunt, all sharing the same chassis block of course. The post-grouping 4-4-0s were both 10'0" coupled wheelbase locomotives; the biggest distortion was on the County.

 

EDIT - looking at photos of the Hornby County, I think I've been unjust. The model does seem to capture the legs-all-behind look of the prototype, so it must have had a different chassis block. Even less excuse for the extra 6" on the Compound then. And the less said about the tender the better.

 

They all came out in what Hornby called "The Year Of The Loco" in 1981. Not bad for their time, although that is forty years ago!

 

They were trying to play catch up with Mainline. As well as the 4-4-0s there was also new Britannia, A1 and WC/BoBs. It was also the year that most of the old deadwood was consigned to history, many to reappear as Thomas toys.

 

 

The Amercom model is the same as the GBL model, which was based on the Bachmann model. You virtually got an unmotorised Bachmann Midland Compound for about £8. I've got a couple. Some were better than others. But the LMS seems to have got off pretty well. The Jinty and Ivatt tank were two other good models that would be easy to motorise. The Coronation and Princess were the versions before the new releases so still pretty good. The Black Five wasn't bad either.

 

The Royal Scot and 8F were poor as they used the old models to copy. The Scot was based on the Airfix one ISTR.

 

http://greatbritishlocomotive.co.uk/_uk/?page_id=7

 

 

 

 

Jason

[GarrettTheThief]

31 minutes ago, ianLMS said:

Feel free to add pics of your work on here as well. Hopefully we can feed of each other and get both loco's looking a lot better than they did originally.

 

Thank you. I'm happy to share pics once I've finished and applied weathering (only lightly, I'm aware how how much the MR cleaned and repainted their locos extensively). I've had another look and the whistle is slightly the wrong shape, which can be fixed with some filing. I also noticed the steps are outset a bit too much so that will need adjusting. A lot of issues would be hard to cover up given how wide the Hornby body is

 

I've had trouble finding a tender kit so I'm probably going to buy another Amercom model and attach a wheelbase to it, and power the boiler portion with either a coreless or a Mashima 1424 motor and Roadrunner gearbox.

 

16 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

The Amercom model is the same as the GBL model, which was based on the Bachmann model. You virtually got an unmotorised Bachmann Midland Compound for about £8. I've got a couple.

 

...now THAT'S interesting, and from the model's structure, it looks like it would be possible to attach a motorised chassis to it with a bit of cutting.

 

It presents an interesting situation. The Hornby model looks nice enough once you tidy up the clumsy lining and with creative weathering, the incorrect proportions could be disguised (plus, sunk cost fallacy) but with a bit of work, it's still possible to produce a better model using a cheap base. Is it worth attempting...?

 

But that's for another thread, as the focus of this one is modifying the Hornby model in particular.

 

[ianLMS]

Hoping to get time at the weekend to finish fitting the handrails and other details so will provide an update early next week. I am also finishing off my Comet 50ft kitchen car so will be busy assembling the freshly painted parts ready for the lining and decals to be added.

 

Have a lovely weekend!

 

Ian

 

 

[GarrettTheThief]

On 17/09/2020 at 16:17, GarrettTheThief said:

I've had trouble finding a tender kit so I'm probably going to buy another Amercom model and attach a wheelbase to it, and power the boiler portion with either a coreless or a Mashima 1424 motor and Roadrunner gearbox.

I had trouble because... I didn’t know what exactly I was looking for. It turns out the tender used on the preserved 1000 was taken from another loco entirely, and Comet’s Fowler 3.5k is likely exactly what I need.

 

I’ve decided to stick with the Hornby model for the front portion for now and only sell the the brick-on-wheels in favour of the tender kit, so I have a full set of wheels/connecting rod/piston etc for the Comet chassis (if they can be used with the chassis and High-Level motor/gearbox). This means I only need to source Ultrascale or Alan Gibson G4851 12-spoke wheels for the tender.

 

I’m a little stuck for the decals on the back of the tender, though. I’ll need a few as I have both a 3F and 4F that also need rebranding.

[Compound2632]

I understood - possibly wrongly - that the tender attached to 1000 as preserved was taken from one of the preserved S&DJR 2-8-0s (prior to preservation) as at the time of preservation 1000 was attached to a hybrid tender that had an LMS standard tank on Deeley frames, or some such. For a Midland (i.e. Deely as built or superheated) compound in Midland or early LMS days, one wants a Deeley tender but later on one would have to dig deep to find out exactly what tender a particular class member had at a given time. But the LMS standard 3,500 gal tender (so-called Fowler tender) is, I think, right for a Standard (LMS) Compound. But I may be wrong and don't have Summerson or the relevant monographs by Hunt et al. to hand - very open to correction. 

 

EDIT: Nos. 1000-1004 started life with bogie tenders. These may have been to some extent "reconstructed" after the introduction of water troughs on the Midland - presumably around the time the engines were rebuilt to conform to the Deeley aesthetic and remove all the W.M. Smith patent features - but if any part of the original tenders went into the new tenders, it didn't contribute to the appearance. The frames of a couple of these bogie tenders (or possibly ones off Belpaires) were used for the Hellifield snowploughs. But again as I'm away from Summerson I can't give chapter and verse.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Compound2632

[ianLMS]

14 hours ago, GarrettTheThief said:

I’m a little stuck for the decals on the back of the tender, though. I’ll need a few as I have both a 3F and 4F that also need rebranding.

 

The pic here shows the LMS plate at the top, with the capacity plate lower down. I would ignore the IZ99 plate (not sure what that is) and unless modelling steam in latter years, the overhead electric signs aren't needed either (i don't believe and stand to be corrected). I get etched ones from 247 Developments and they do various plates with numbers and capacities so useful for any LMS tender.

 

[ianLMS]

Body modifications to date;

Removed moulded detail such as boiler bands, handrails etc except rivets, wash-plugs

Fitted handrails to cab side and back of cab, along boiler (secured with split-pins), smokebox side and front (.45mm brass rod)

Exhaust valve moved to left and replaced (Alan Gibson w/1mm brass rod & tube)

Lamp irons installed on front end and on smokebox door (.45mm brass rod)

Cabside numbers removed (soft fibre glass scratch brush)

Fowler dome and chimney (Alan Gibson)

Replaced Ramsbottom safety with Fowler type (Markits with old WM base)

Replaced cab roof hatch (scrap brass)

New reversing lever (made from spare sprue)

new Westinghouse pump (Markits) w/.33mm brass rod as pipes)

New buffers (Alan Gibson sprung type)

Removed moulded Coupling "hook"  from buffer and installed coupling plate (Brassmasters) ready for Screw coupling (MJT etched)

Replaced moulded boiler bands with Wizard coach roof tape (0.5mm)

 

To do:

Remove manufacturer plates under smokebox (replace with etched ones from 247 Developments)

Prime

Re-spray Black

Re-number

Fit decals, coupling, glazing, safety valves etc

Paint cab interior and backhead

Build chassis (kind of important I suppose)

Find/build appropriate tender 

 

Anything else you folks can think of?

 

Thanks

Ian

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, ianLMS said:

 

The pic here shows the LMS plate at the top, with the capacity plate lower down. I would ignore the IZ99 plate (not sure what that is) and unless modelling steam in latter years, the overhead electric signs aren't needed either (i don't believe and stand to be corrected). I get etched ones from 247 Developments and they do various plates with numbers and capacities so useful for any LMS tender.

 

 

1Z99 is it's train number. Exactly the same method that diesels used in the 1960s.

 

It's re-running a railtour from the 1960s which I think was the last train. The original one was with a MR 3F 0-6-0 which was the regular branch locomotive. ISTR the K&WVR tried to buy it, but it was beyond their means at the time.

 

They did sell a Bachmann limited edition of it.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/115788/bachmann_branchline_31_625z_class_3f_0_6_0_43586_in_br_black_with_late_crest_special_edition_for_kwvr/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

 

Jason

[Iain.d]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I understood - possibly wrongly - that the tender attached to 1000 as preserved was taken from one of the preserved S&DJR 2-8-0s (prior to preservation)....

Hi Stephen,

 

I have read that the tender now with the MR Compound 1000 is the former Deeley tender taken from S&D 7F 53805; this was done in 1959 when (I believe) the restoration of the Compound was undertaken (see Model Railway Journal No 202 p270 for more information). I have images of 53805 in July 1957 with a Deeley tender, no images for 1958, and with a Fowler tender by March 1959.

 

The tenders currently behind 53808 and 53809 are (again I believe) the ones they were withdrawn with; certainly the hybrid tender behind 53808 today, looks the same as the one in photos between 1962 and 1964. I think 53809 had a 'standard' Fowler 3500 gallon type its whole life.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

[ianLMS]

On 20/09/2020 at 22:19, Compound2632 said:

I understood - possibly wrongly - that the tender attached to 1000 as preserved was taken from one of the preserved S&DJR 2-8-0s (prior to preservation) as at the time of preservation 1000 was attached to a hybrid tender that had an LMS standard tank on Deeley frames, or some such. For a Midland (i.e. Deely as built or superheated) compound in Midland or early LMS days, one wants a Deeley tender but later on one would have to dig deep to find out exactly what tender a particular class member had at a given time. But the LMS standard 3,500 gal tender (so-called Fowler tender) is, I think, right for a Standard (LMS) Compound. But I may be wrong and don't have Summerson or the relevant monographs by Hunt et al. to hand - very open to correction. 

 

EDIT: Nos. 1000-1004 started life with bogie tenders. These may have been to some extent "reconstructed" after the introduction of water troughs on the Midland - presumably around the time the engines were rebuilt to conform to the Deeley aesthetic and remove all the W.M. Smith patent features - but if any part of the original tenders went into the new tenders, it didn't contribute to the appearance. The frames of a couple of these bogie tenders (or possibly ones off Belpaires) were used for the Hellifield snowploughs. But again as I'm away from Summerson I can't give chapter and verse.

I have a book on Midland Compounds and have scanned the pages referring to tenders. So, as i am building 1088 (at Millhouses in 1939), it looks like a Fowler type tender will be right.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by ianLMS

[ianLMS]

So, after measuring the white metal GEM chassis that was included in the kit, i now find myself quietly chuckling to myself in the corner. The axle holes in the white metal chassis are exactly the same as the Comet ones. ie 40mm (10ft) rather than the correct 38mm (9'6") that it should be.

 

So, I now have a couple of options!

A. Don't worry about the 2mm, get another Comet chassis and I will have 2 not-quite accurate but reasonably looking models (slightly more expensive option)

B. Buy a set of Alan Gibson mainframes, cut'n'shut the GEM footplate to get rid of the 2mm, and have at least one more accurate model (slightly more technically challenging option)

 

Open to votes!!

 

Thanks

Ian

[ianLMS]

Quick update.

 

The body is now pretty much complete other than painting/lining etc and I am working on the chassis. Just waiting for new wheels from Wizard (the non-insulated ones that came with the GEM kit didn't have the crankpin holes drilled out and my attempt completely ruined the one side. The insulated ones were pre-drilled so I have at least one side I can connect up to!

 

Gearbox etc will be built once I get the wheels and can test it all runs freely before adding the power etc. 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by ianLMS

[Blandford1969]

It looks great as it is and only really you would know about the difference.  

[GarrettTheThief]

That's coming along very nicely, it looks fantastic!

 

I'm still busy with the move but I'll be brave enough to post photos of my work by next week.