Semaphore and Electric Light Signals on the Same Gantry

[Arun Sharma]

In the attached photograph of 45632 Tonga at (I believe) Stockport Edgeley around late 1964, the signal gantry behind it has both semaphore arms as well as electric light signals. Does anyone know why these were both in place on the same gantry and whether this was a common occurrence?

 

 

[Grovenor]

Not especially common, usually at the boundaries between semaphore and colourlight areas. There are/were some signalling principles detailing how this was to be done.

The colourlights should be unlit with the semaphore at stop and come up with yellow/double yellow/green when the arm is pulled off depending on the aspect sequence requireds. The main lines through Stockport were changed to 4 aspect colour light on electrification while the boxes remained mechanical.

[Pete the Elaner]

Sorry to drag this off topic, but I have never seen a tender like that on a Jubilee. What is it?

[Joseph_Pestell]

7 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Sorry to drag this off topic, but I have never seen a tender like that on a Jubilee. What is it?

It's a coal weighing tender for doing trials.

[Arun Sharma]

15 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

It's a coal weighing tender for doing trials.

The reason why I was using this picture was that I had found it interesting when designing my 7mm kit of a self-weighing tender. SW Tenders behind Jubilees [there was only one Jubilee so fitted I gather] needed a slightly built up footplate compared to when they were used behind Black 5s.

The model was also a bow pen lining testbed!

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Arun Sharma
addnl info

[LMS2968]

5 minutes ago, Arun Sharma said:

The reason why I was using this picture was that I had found it interesting when designing my 7mm kit of a self-weighing tender. SW Tenders behind Jubilees [there was only one Jubilee so fitted I gather] needed a slightly built up footplate compared to when they were used behind Black 5s.

I don't think so. The Scots certainly had a higher footplate than other Stanier classes and a false platform at the front of the tender was necessary, but to the best of my knowledge, not so with the 5Xs. Had it been so, the same situation would have arisen with the Stanier 4000 gallon and Fowler 3500 gallon tenders, and I've never seen any evidence of it, although it can be easily seen with the Scots.

[Edwin_m]

Not sure I can match that view to any of the signal boxes around Stockport, though I've only known them rather more recently.  Is the box name readable on enlargement?  

[LNERGE]

The aspects shown by this signal were red on the semaphore arm when on. When the arm was raised the lamp was obscured by a blanking plate in place of the green lens. The action of raising the arm caused the colour light head to light up to yellow. When the box in advance pulled off it would turn to green. Those in the earlier pictures would have been similar but red by the arm yellow, double yellow and green.

[micknich2003]

Here's my 4mm model of a "Hybrid" signal.

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, Arun Sharma said:

In the attached photograph of 45632 Tonga at (I believe) Stockport Edgeley around late 1964, the signal gantry behind it has both semaphore arms as well as electric light signals. Does anyone know why these were both in place on the same gantry and whether this was a common occurrence?

 

 

 

Easy

 

4 aspect colour light signalling has 3 'proceed aspects'  (single yellow, double yellow and green) 

 

Semaphore signals can technically only show one type of proceed aspect (green)

 

A driver entering 3 / 4 aspect territory MUST NOT encounter a red before getting a yellow aspect (and double yellow before that for 4 aspect signalling) first.

 

Thus wherever you got to a boundary between multiple aspect signalling and semaphores you would find installations like this.

 

When the signal was at Danger then the colour light signal would be blank - the 'red' aspect being given by the semaphore arm horizontal and a intensified (i.e. bright electric) lamp showing through the red spectacle glass on the arm.

 

When the signal was showing a proceed then the semaphore arm would be raised / lowered but the traditional green glass in the arm was missing. Instead the colour light signal would illuminate to so single yellow, double yellow or green, thus ensuring no driver would ever get a 'green onto a red scenario.

 

The Brighton main Line got multiple aspect signalling from Coulsdon to the coast in 1932 - all the converging routes required this sort of arrangement as they approached the main line. Here is a photo of the west end of Hove for example.

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/15912819276/

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by phil-b259

[62613]

With everything as it is, I don't think it's Edgeley either; there are no sighs of any electrification; the line from London Road to Crewe was done in the early 60s. When was the "Not to run South of Crewe " stripe on the cab side added? Although the boxes through from Edgeley Junction No. 1 to Heaton Norris Junction still exist, and they are still as far as know absolute block they re all work 4-aspect colour light ignals, with continuous track circuiting

 

My memory of signals with that arrangement was at Phillips Park, approaching Miles Platting. I think it had to do with the close spacing of the boxes. But that one isn't there.

 Where's @Peanuts when you need him? He did some time in one of the Phillips Park boxes

[Edwin_m]

56 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Easy

 

4 aspect colour light signalling has 3 'proceed aspects'  (single yellow, double yellow and green) 

 

Semaphore signals can technically only show one type of proceed aspect (green)

 

A driver entering 3 / 4 aspect territory MUST NOT encounter a red before getting a yellow aspect (and double yellow before that for 4 aspect signalling) first.

 

It would only have been necessary if the spacing between the last semaphore and the first colour-light stop signal was not much more than braking distance.  Otherwise the section signal would be a normal semaphore stop signal then a Y/G and if necessary a Y/YY/G repeater positioned at the appropriate places to brake to a stop.  

 

I think in later years, when the spacing was too tight for a separate colour-light repeater, they just replaced the semaphore section signal with a colour-light.  

[beast66606]

5 hours ago, Arun Sharma said:

In the attached photograph of 45632 Tonga at (I believe) Stockport Edgeley

 

Not Stockport, thats a LYR box, Newton Heath area perhaps ?

[Mark Saunders]

The only one I know still existing is Billingham's Up distant from Belasis Lane!

[Mark Saunders]

14 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

The only one I know still existing is Billingham's Up distant from Belasis Lane!

It is doomed as the area is currently being readied to go onto York ROC in February.

[62613]

10 hours ago, beast66606 said:

 

Not Stockport, thats a LYR box, Newton Heath area perhaps ?

Was thinking that. There were certainly more than a few boxes in the Newton Heath/Miles Platting area. I think in this case, the double yellow is almost acting as the outer distant for the second box in advance.

[DavidLong]

11 hours ago, beast66606 said:

 

Not Stockport, thats a LYR box, Newton Heath area perhaps ?

45632 was a Newton Heath engine for the last couple of months before withdrawal in October 1965. Looking at maps I think that the signal box in the background is Dean Lane and the platform fencing is Newton Heath station. The engine is standing on one of the tracks which were on a lower level behind the platform. The photo looks like it was taken after withdrawal as the smokebox number plate and name plate have been removed.

Manchester Victoria was a colour light area so I assume that Dean Lane would be a fringe box to the Victoria area.

 

David 

[beast66606]

Newton Heath station - the signal is visible here* (scroll down a couple of photos)

 

http://anothermusic.org/2018/11/02/newton-heath-shed/

 

Edit - and the box of course

Edited November 4, 2020 by beast66606

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, 62613 said:

With everything as it is, I don't think it's Edgeley either; there are no sighs of any electrification; the line from London Road to Crewe was done in the early 60s. When was the "Not to run South of Crewe " stripe on the cab side added? Although the boxes through from Edgeley Junction No. 1 to Heaton Norris Junction still exist, and they are still as far as know absolute block they re all work 4-aspect colour light ignals, with continuous track circuiting

 

My memory of signals with that arrangement was at Phillips Park, approaching Miles Platting. I think it had to do with the close spacing of the boxes. But that one isn't there.

 Where's @Peanuts when you need him? He did some time in one of the Phillips Park boxes

The signal box looks to have a distinctly L&Y feel to it.

 

Sorry - forgot to look at SE's post before I made mine.

 

Returning now to the original question it was in 'the Requirements' at one time that a colour light repeater signal (working as explained above by LNER GE) had to be provided at the boundary between semaphore signalling and colour light signalling.  The number of aspects in the colour light head would be dictated by its distance from the colour light signal next in advance and whether or not it was required to provide braking distance to the second signal in advance (in which case a second t yellow asoect would be included.

 

Additionally in some places a 2 aspect (yellow/Green) colour light below a semaphore stop signal was provided to act as the distant for an IB (Intermediate Block) Home Signal.  So technically in that situation it wasn't reading into a colour light signalled are but simply acting as a colour light distant signal.

 

The requirement seems to have lapsed to some extent by the 1960s with many instances of the colour light not being provided especially on stage works.  An unusual variant was installed at Reading in 1961. as part of Stage 1 of the Reading - Hayes resignalling where instead of using a colour light head a electrically worked semaphore distant arm was used instead - probably to ensure consistency and avoiding reading through in a location where the semaphores were fairly close together.  Although it was presumably regard as 'temporary' this arrangement last for four years.

Edited November 4, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[Joseph_Pestell]

16 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

Not sure I can match that view to any of the signal boxes around Stockport, though I've only known them rather more recently.  Is the box name readable on enlargement?  

 

I've been wondering if it could be the east end of Manchester Victoria. Looks about right on old maps although I can't identify what buildings those chimneys would be on.

[beast66606]

8 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I've been wondering if it could be the east end of Manchester Victoria. Looks about right on old maps although I can't identify what buildings those chimneys would be on.

 

Perhaps my post above which identifies the location may help ?

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

Perhaps my post above which identifies the location may help ?

 

Sorry, missed your post (and the one preceding). Not enough coffee for that time of day.