Damaged Peco SL points when fitting below-board motor - how fix?

[ITG]

Hi,

I’ve been laying some 20 Streamline electro frog points of various sizes/shapes, with below-board solenoid motors. I chose to fit the shaft from motor upwards through the pivot ‘tie bar’ of the point, and then to trim it to correct length afterwards (possibly a mistake). I thought I could use an electric multi-tool, with a miniature cutting disc. On most of the points, that was fine, but on 4 I realised afterwards that the angle I held the cutting disc at, had damaged the tie bar. The hole through which the shaft fits is now no longer a ‘round’ fit, so the shaft moves within it. Also, the spring which ‘clicks’ the blades into place now has too much play in the tie bar, so the movement of the blades is now sloppy. 
 

Does anyone have a solution, or experience of a fix of any kind? I am aiming for maximum reliability (aren’t we all?) so if I have to ditch the 4 points, and buy new ones - well, so be it. I should say this trimming of shafts was about the last step of track

laying; the track is pinned, droppers all connected etc, so I have a not insignificant task whatever, I suspect.

[Gilbert]

Can you post a photo showing the extent of the damage?

[ITG]

22 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

Can you post a photo showing the extent of the damage?

Thanks for the interest. Photo 1 shows probably the worst damage, the shaft is now not in place, but you can see the blades are not fitting firm against the rail.

Photo 2 point still has the shaft in place, but the hole is clearly misshapen. I’m so annoyed with myself, but I suppose it’s all learning!

It’s difficult to get a close-up that clearly shows the problem.

Edited November 9, 2020 by ITG

[Michael Hodgson]

Yeah, fitting those motors from below is a pain in the backside, and the operating rod is difficult to cut.  I don't use a drill, I use a Xuron cutter intended for cutting rails.  Not sure I know what to do to fix your damage, but is it possible to fit a very short length of brass tube over the rod to fill in the hole?

 

I've got a point one of whose switch blades has come adrift from the tie bar.  In theory all I have to do is replace the pivot, but I doubt I can do that even if I remove the point from the baseboard, which will of course also mean refitting the point motor.

 

As for the over-centre spring, some people remove them anyway (more especially if they are using other types of point motor).

 

If you are unable to repair these points, it sounds as though they might still be usable provided they can be used somewhere that they are only ever approached in the trailing direction, although of course there is no such position on many layouts.

[Michael Hodgson]

On seeing the damage, and assuming you need to pass over them in the facing direction, my first concern would be to make sure the blades move fully over, to avoid derailments.  Probably some mangled plastic under the tie bar which might be difficult to clear.  Moving the points would be a secondary consideration, and I would suggest that you consider a different linkage as the way of operating those points - ie use a linkage to the little bit of plastic at the tie bar ends.

[ITG]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

On seeing the damage, and assuming you need to pass over them in the facing direction, my first concern would be to make sure the blades move fully over, to avoid derailments.  Probably some mangled plastic under the tie bar which might be difficult to clear.  Moving the points would be a secondary consideration, and I would suggest that you consider a different linkage as the way of operating those points - ie use a linkage to the little bit of plastic at the tie bar ends.

The damaged points are all in either a goods yard or loco shed area, so will get traffic in both directions. I thought about maybe an above-board mounted motor, to use the tie bar end. But, that may also incur extra time/expense, either with a different motor, or finding ways to hide the motor, in what is a fairly track-congested area.

Im not sure that either solution will address the sloppy spring problem.

[Butler Henderson]

If it is only the overcentre spring that is the problem then a solution might be to fit a Peco PL12 base (which has an overcentre spring built in - not the PL12X version which does not) onto the underside of the motor with strong double sided tape.  Alternatively change the motors to SEEP PM4s which have an overcentre spring built in.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Butler Henderson

[HLT 0109]

Not sure if it is possible as I have not tried it but, as an alternative to what Michael has suggested, could you move the motors sideways so that the rods poke through a new hole in the end of each tie bar?  It will depend on whether the width of the tie bar is enough for the correct size hole (and your skill with a drill).  If there remains a problem with the over-cente spring then the Seep PM4 could be used in the new positions.

 

Harold.

[newbryford]

Can you glue a short length of brass tube into the tie bar?

ID would be slightly larger than an underboard motor drive pin

[ITG]

Thanks all for your help.

Taking everything into account, there are 2 problems to solve (the distorted tie bar hole and the lack of spring on the blades), so I’ve decided to replace the points. I was concerned that investing in a PL12 base, or a motor with inbuilt spring, may not resolve the tie bar issue. And using either brass tube or an offset hole wouldn’t address the spring issue.  I also have to bear in mind my experience and skill levels if I attempted some of the suggested tasks.

 

At least if I replace the point, the existing motor and pin, and connected wiring, can all remain in place.

I plan to hopefully trim the chairs on the pieces of track adjacent to these damaged point, slide the rail joiners along, to allow the point to be lifted (after snipping the soldered droppers off).

 

Then reverse that process to insert the new points.

 

Costly, but certainty, I hope. Mind you, in these current times, I’ve had to search for Peco electrofrog points, but found the 4 I need, from 3 different sources. 
Thanks once again.

[MartynJPearson]

Before you go to the expense of buying new points it could be that reseating the spring will resolve the issue, as long as the point blades are still properly attached to the tie bar. If the spring has sprung, Peco can supply replacements.

 

As for the hole in the tie bar, the travel of point motors is normally slightly more than the travel of the tie bar, so once the spring is in place you may find that it works perfectly well.

[Theakerr]

Agree re re-seting the spring,  also check that it is properly in place.  Over the years I have had one or two springs where one side has 'popped' out of its locating slot.  This results in a spring that sort of works.  You will not glue an insert into the base.  The plastic that Peco use just will not take glue.   However, in similar situation to your, both I and a friend have both had success sliding a 'bushing' over the solenoid pin.   In one case it is still working
OK 25+ years later