The odd tale of the Co-Bo and it's price.

[Silverfox17]

Completely off topic of Co-Bo but in keeping with the prices discussed in the last few posts, this TT item sold within 24 hours. I do know the new owner as he bought it after I told him it was for sale.  Mind you it was free postage maybe that  persuaded him lol. 

 

It seems TT has over taken Dublo as collectable as last year a single open continental wagon went for over £1,000.

 

Garry 

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I Must admit I think TT is the optimal gauge for model railways and it is a shame it never took off. But those prices are absolutely crazy. For that price you could probably buy a real Class 31. Albite needing a bit of restoration.....

Edited January 3, 2021 by cypherman

[Phil Parker]

30 minutes ago, Silverfox17 said:

Completely off topic of Co-Bo but in keeping with the prices discussed in the last few posts, this TT item sold within 24 hours. I do know the new owner as he bought it after I told him it was for sale.  Mind you it was free postage maybe that  persuaded him lol. 

 

It seems TT has over taken Dublo as collectable as last year a single open continental wagon went for over £1,000.

 

I love it when I suggest that people join the 3mm Society to gain access to the 2nd hand sales service to acquire TT at very reasonable, even cheap, prices. Most umm and ahhh and make an excuse, to save themselves the membership fee, preferring to pay higher prices elsewhere.

[Silverfox17]

8 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I love it when I suggest that people join the 3mm Society to gain access to the 2nd hand sales service to acquire TT at very reasonable, even cheap, prices. Most umm and ahhh and make an excuse, to save themselves the membership fee, preferring to pay higher prices elsewhere.

Mmm, I dont remember seeing blue A1A's or continental open wagons in the second hand sales.  Not seen blue and grey coaches for a long time either. Brits and DMU's are in very very short supply so Ebay prices are the only way to get them. 

[H2O]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

... the CoBo which I started very low sold for about £150 and the EMU for over £300, I could not believe it, they were both very play worn ...

 

Sounds like a win win situation of fully enjoying the models when you were young and getting a good price when you had finished with them :-) well done.

[David_Belcher]

On 01/01/2021 at 11:41, Il Grifone said:

The Co-Bo wasn't the most attractive model, but this only reflected her prototype. IIRC the model wasn't particularly cheap either. She would pull a house down, like the Deltic look-(something) like, but few people had the space to utilise her haulage power. Tri-ang's Brush was a rather more attractive proposition and, 3 rail having been killed off, being 2 rail was no longer an objection.

 I don't know if our group was typical, but we were all steam fans, something Tri-ang  and Trix seemed aware of, but Meccano Limited ignored. At the the time, I had no desire to own any of their 1960's production. I was building a GWR BLT at the time....

 I did finally acquire one about ten/fifteen years ago for £30/40 (I forget the exact price) in reasonable condition.

 

EDIT Memory fail - it was March 2013.

The HD Bo-Bo 2-rail chassis had failings that weren't ironed out until the MU and the AL1 appeared, so I guess a diesel model that used the more successful 3-axle power bogie was an obvious choice, without directly competing with a Lines Brothers product (the 0-6-0 DE shunter was the only diesel or steam outline model where they properly overlapped with Rovex IIRC), otherwise I suspect they'd have plumped for a 31 or 37. Had the Bo-Bo chassis been flawless a Derby Type 2 might have been a better choice in that power category than the Metro-Vick; during the 60s all regions except the Western had one (and by the end of it even former WR territory like the Cambrian had some) at some point, even if their axle loading didn't make the ones with heating boilers popular on the ex-Chatham lines of the Southern.

 

I'm surprised they didn't put the 3-axle Ringfield power bogie into a Brush 4, but maybe they'd already got wind that Trix had one planned? In the Michael Foster book this seems to have been the very reason why a Ringfield-driven Western was binned. Safe to say that a Derby or EE Type 4 would have been an unlikely choice given the need to be compatible with tight "train set" curved track back in the day.

 

David

[PatB]

7 hours ago, David_Belcher said:

The HD Bo-Bo 2-rail chassis had failings that weren't ironed out until the MU and the AL1 appeared, so I guess a diesel model that used the more successful 3-axle power bogie was an obvious choice, without directly competing with a Lines Brothers product (the 0-6-0 DE shunter was the only diesel or steam outline model where they properly overlapped with Rovex IIRC), otherwise I suspect they'd have plumped for a 31 or 37. Had the Bo-Bo chassis been flawless a Derby Type 2 might have been a better choice in that power category than the Metro-Vick; during the 60s all regions except the Western had one (and by the end of it even former WR territory like the Cambrian had some) at some point, even if their axle loading didn't make the ones with heating boilers popular on the ex-Chatham lines of the Southern.

 

I'm surprised they didn't put the 3-axle Ringfield power bogie into a Brush 4, but maybe they'd already got wind that Trix had one planned? In the Michael Foster book this seems to have been the very reason why a Ringfield-driven Western was binned. Safe to say that a Derby or EE Type 4 would have been an unlikely choice given the need to be compatible with tight "train set" curved track back in the day.

 

David

I dunno about that. I have a Mainline Peak, whose wobbly bogies allow it to grind and squeal around an R1 oval. It's obviously on the limit, but it does it, and does it reliably. 

[PatB]

14 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I love it when I suggest that people join the 3mm Society to gain access to the 2nd hand sales service to acquire TT at very reasonable, even cheap, prices. Most umm and ahhh and make an excuse, to save themselves the membership fee, preferring to pay higher prices elsewhere.

At risk of dragging the thread even further off topic, would it be realistic to hope to be able to stock, say, an original Minories, as originally intended by CJF, from Society s/h sales, at sensible prices in a reasonable time? That is, a couple of Jinties and a handful of suburban coaches, within a budget of, say, a couple of hundred quid, and a timescale of, say, a year. Obviously, s/H availability is pot luck, to a large extent, but I'm just trying to get a feel for what might be reasonably achievable, with the more common models in runner, rather than collector, condition.

 

Mind you, as it's only 25 quid to join, I may chuck 'em a membership fee anyway, just to satisfy my curiosity, and add another scale society to my record. 

[kevinlms]

19 hours ago, MarkC said:

Thanks for the RA info above, gents. That confirms my thoughts.

 

How interesting it is, that even diesels (and presumably electrics) would be affected by such things. It was more obvious with steam locomotives - reciprocating forces, hammer blow etc., of course.

 

Mark

Yes it ought to be remembered that the Class 86 electrics used a simplified motor mounting compared to the Class 81 - 85. The result was that the Class 86, smashed the track to pieces.  Some were later fitted with resilient wheels to reduce the pounding to the track, but never properly resolved. 

The later Class 87 and subsequent classes went back a more complex mounting system. 

[Phil Parker]

2 hours ago, PatB said:

At risk of dragging the thread even further off topic, would it be realistic to hope to be able to stock, say, an original Minories, as originally intended by CJF, from Society s/h sales, at sensible prices in a reasonable time? That is, a couple of Jinties and a handful of suburban coaches, within a budget of, say, a couple of hundred quid, and a timescale of, say, a year. Obviously, s/H availability is pot luck, to a large extent, but I'm just trying to get a feel for what might be reasonably achievable, with the more common models in runner, rather than collector, condition.

 

Mind you, as it's only 25 quid to join, I may chuck 'em a membership fee anyway, just to satisfy my curiosity, and add another scale society to my record. 

 

Yes. They will be delighted to get rid of both Jinties and suburban coaches. If you will take some brake vans as well, they will love you for it even more. All are available in stupidly large numbers. When I was a member, only the foreign models were really rare. Even DMUs came up reasonably regularly.

 

It's worth considering whitemetal kits fitted to Jinty chassis too. I have a very nice BEC pannier tank that was nicely made, runs well and is a bit different.

 

Membership is £25 very well spent.

[Silverfox17]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

It's worth considering whitemetal kits fitted to Jinty chassis too. I have a very nice BEC pannier tank that was nicely made, runs well and is a bit different.

 

Membership is £25 very well spent.

I have all the Bec kits and agree on them being nice models. 

 

Each to their own, I have been a member for about 2 or 3 years but looking at leaving when my membership runs out.   Some people are nice but not saying anything about others. 

[GoingUnderground]

2K for a single Loco? Wow!!!!!! But it does look lovely.

 

Cypherman's comment about TT being the ideal size isn't something that I've ever thought about before. But it does have a lot of sense, more compact than OO but still a size that I can relate to. For me N is just too small. However I'm staying with OO, it's too late for me to change.

 

Back to the Co-Bo, it looks so featureless in Rail Blue, but that's only to be expected because of the design.

 

Has anyone ever tried repainting one in the two tone green of the Deltic and Hymek? It might look quite good as the light green stripe would add more colour interest.

 

H/D were intending to give the BR Green model a half height yellow warning panel when the model was rerun, presumably by modifying the mould to add the same sort of raised boundary to the painted area as seen on the EMU, but they never sold enough before the Lines Bros takeover of Meccano to rerun it. It does look better with the half height yellow panel.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Well my co-bo has arrived. Pretty damned quick. The roof needs painting but it is that green/grey colour that H/D rooves seem to go. What colour should it be. Light grey, mid grey or slate grey. Or is thia colour actually prototypical. Any help would be appreciated..

Also needed traction tyes. So Bullfrog snot to the rescue.......lol

Edited January 4, 2021 by cypherman

[andyman7]

On 03/01/2021 at 13:24, Silverfox17 said:

Completely off topic of Co-Bo but in keeping with the prices discussed in the last few posts, this TT item sold within 24 hours. I do know the new owner as he bought it after I told him it was for sale.  Mind you it was free postage maybe that  persuaded him lol. 

 

It seems TT has over taken Dublo as collectable as last year a single open continental wagon went for over £1,000.

 

Garry 

A fascinating item but this is a real outlier - an item that is both documented and incredibly rare, from a verified source. Only a tiny number of people would be willing to pay this but the availability is even tinier.

It's like rare colours for Dinky cars. The whole point is that it fetches that price because it is in that colour....'blimey, how much? I've got one just like it. Well OK its a different colour, but....'

Edited January 4, 2021 by andyman7

[Silverfox17]

36 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

A fascinating item but this is a real outlier - an item that is both documented and incredibly rare, from a verified source. Only a tiny number of people would be willing to pay this but the availability is even tinier.

It's like rare colours for Dinky cars. The whole point is that it fetches that price because it is in that colour....'blimey, how much? I've got one just like it. Well OK its a different colour, but....'

I do know how rare it is, I have spoken to the seller a few times, met him and got his book on TT, there was only 50 made but each to their own (I would love one myself) and if someone wants to pay that it is their prerogative but not me.  I doubt they would say it is actually worth it, it is more a case of I must have one at whatever cost which is what puts prices up, collectors of the must have brigade.

 

I have an even rarer Dublo item of which there are only two known examples so wonder how much that would fetch?

[andyman7]

1 minute ago, Silverfox17 said:

I have an even rarer Dublo item of which there are only two known examples so wonder how much that would fetch?

Is that the green front EMU without the moulded mask line for the yellow panel?

[Silverfox17]

2 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Is that the green front EMU without the moulded mask line for the yellow panel?

Yes.

[David_Belcher]

19 hours ago, PatB said:

I dunno about that. I have a Mainline Peak, whose wobbly bogies allow it to grind and squeal around an R1 oval. It's obviously on the limit, but it does it, and does it reliably. 

Palitoy and Jouef solved the problem in a similar way at around the same time. But look at how compact the motors in their Peak and EE Type 4 bogies are compared to HD motors.

 

David

[David_Belcher]

12 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

2K for a single Loco? Wow!!!!!! But it does look lovely.

 

Cypherman's comment about TT being the ideal size isn't something that I've ever thought about before. But it does have a lot of sense, more compact than OO but still a size that I can relate to. For me N is just too small. However I'm staying with OO, it's too late for me to change.

 

Back to the Co-Bo, it looks so featureless in Rail Blue, but that's only to be expected because of the design.

 

Has anyone ever tried repainting one in the two tone green of the Deltic and Hymek? It might look quite good as the light green stripe would add more colour interest.

 

H/D were intending to give the BR Green model a half height yellow warning panel when the model was rerun, presumably by modifying the mould to add the same sort of raised boundary to the painted area as seen on the EMU, but they never sold enough before the Lines Bros takeover of Meccano to rerun it. It does look better with the half height yellow panel.

Being a diecast model, I don't think it would have had a boundary line added - Meccano never bothered with a panel boundary on the two-tone Deltics...did they?

 

David

[DCB]

Just looking at the sheer amount of bits H/D crammed into the CoBo and Deltic leaves me in no doubt as to why they went broke.  That awful huge ringfield motor and bevel gears to a layshaft.   It made no sense to me.

I scrapped my Deltic power bogie and used the ring magnet on a 4MT Tank chassis to fit it to a Triang 3MT.  I still have it. It's possibly unique. I'll stick it on eBay for £1500 on Sunday, but RM web readers can have it for £1499.99.

[Silverfox17]

7 hours ago, David_Belcher said:

Being a diecast model, I don't think it would have had a boundary line added - Meccano never bothered with a panel boundary on the two-tone Deltics...did they?

 

David

Yes, there were lines cast in for the light green at the bottom and I think part of the white window surround did too. That is the reason I used Co-Co bodies to paint as Deltics. 

 

Garry 

[GoingUnderground]

19 hours ago, Silverfox17 said:

I do know how rare it is, I have spoken to the seller a few times, met him and got his book on TT, there was only 50 made but each to their own (I would love one myself) and if someone wants to pay that it is their prerogative but not me.  I doubt they would say it is actually worth it, it is more a case of I must have one at whatever cost which is what puts prices up, collectors of the must have brigade.

 

Quote

I have an even rarer Dublo item of which there are only two known examples so wonder how much that would fetch?

On the EMU without the paint border, in his book, Michael Foster thinks the ones without lines would have been from the first batch made, which he says would have been of 200. Still, even 1 in 200 is quite a find.

 

Foster also says it is a pity that H/D didn't make a maroon version as it was based on the LMR Class 501. But all the references and pictures of the 501s that I can find say/show it in BR's standard EMU green. So he may be mistaken in thinking that the 501 Watford DC stock was ever painted maroon.

 

Tony & Darren Cooper did produce a maroon version a few years ago, using the running gear and rooves from the usual H/D green EMUs, adding newly printed maroon tinplate sides and new maroon plastic end mouldings for the Driving Motor and Control Trailer. They were sold as boxed sets with two H/D maroon suburbans as the trailers, with a limited run of 30.  I don't know if that was 30 2 rail and 30 3 rail or just 30 in total. Whichever, that makes them rarer, but not truly original H/D despite Tony and Darren's impeccable credentials as H/D experts par excellence. Also 501s only ever ran as 3 car sets, I used them for several years in the late 1970s and 1980s when I worked in central London.

 

 

 

Back on the Co-Bo, its yellow front panel and the need for a paint boundary. The body material doesn't matter. What does matter is the amount of raised and recessed detail in the area to be picked out in the required colour and the curvature of the area. If there is none and the area only curves in 2 dimensions, then a coloured self adhesive label is all that's needed. A frame/border may not be needed, but it would make it easier and quicker to affix the label in exactly the right place if being done by hand. However, if there is raised or recessed detail then a label may well obscure the detail. Equally if the area is curved in 3 dimensions then it may not be possible to apply a label without creasing. Then paint becomes the only option. Hand painting is slow, especially when painting recesses, and errors can happen. Also paint can be difficult to get into recessed parts by hand or get adequate coverage over raised edges. The surface tension can also draw the paint along recesses into areas where the colour is not required. Adding a boundary removes these issues as it makes hand painting easier and quicker, and stops the paint being drawn into unwanted areas. It also allows the colour to be spray painted with a mask thus ensuring adequate overage with no overspill. Hence my, possibly wrong I'll admit, assumption that a frame or boundary would have been added.

 

The Co-Bo does have raised and recessed detail in the area of the yellow warning panel which I thought made a paint boundary a distinct possibility.

 

Foster also says that H/D experimented with adding headlight units to increase sales of the Co-Bo but dropped the idea when it was badly received at the January '64 Toy Fairs. However he does say that several genuine examples of headlight equipped Co-Bos are known to exist without giving details of the number. These may have been produced by modifying standard bodies at Binns Road to have sufficient for the Toy Fairs, which might make them rarer than the 200 plain green EMUs, or perhaps not. Foster doesn't give details of as he says "..we have our rogues who would very soon convert the standard model into a highly prized rarity on the kitchen table!".

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by GoingUnderground

[Silverfox17]

2 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

Tony & Darren Cooper did produce a maroon version a few years ago, using the running gear and rooves from the usual H/D green EMUs, adding newly printed maroon tinplate sides and new maroon plastic end mouldings for the Driving Motor and Control Trailer. They were sold as boxed sets with two H/D maroon suburbans as the trailers, with a limited run of 30.  I don't know if that was 30 2 rail and 30 3 rail or just 30 in total. Whichever, that makes them rarer, but not truly original H/D despite Tony and Darren's impeccable credentials as H/D experts par excellence. Also 501s only ever ran as 3 car sets, I used them for several years in the late 1970s and 1980s when I worked in central London.

The plain green ends were not supposed to have been sold so no one knows how many actually got out into the public domain.  A leading Dublo expert and enthusiast thought he had the only one in existence until he saw mine, maybe there are more but we will never know how many there might be.

Tony Coopers EMU on the other hand were all sold out so people know there are 30 out there as I doubt any of these have been scrapped or thrown away.

 

I was at Tony's house just before these were finished and at the time he had a large box full of both of these ends he had cast in aluminium but I have no idea if he used them or not.  He said they had shrunk a little in height but it was not noticeable on the body of the first set he showed me.

 

I have seen one Co-Bo with lights a long time ago but the owner had bought it from someone like that and had no idea if it was original or not.

 

 

[GoingUnderground]

26 minutes ago, Silverfox17 said:

The plain green ends were not supposed to have been sold so no one knows how many actually got out into the public domain.  A leading Dublo expert and enthusiast thought he had the only one in existence until he saw mine, maybe there are more but we will never know how many there might be.

Tony Coopers EMU on the other hand were all sold out so people know there are 30 out there as I doubt any of these have been scrapped or thrown away.

 

I was at Tony's house just before these were finished and at the time he had a large box full of both of these ends he had cast in aluminium but I have no idea if he used them or not.  He said they had shrunk a little in height but it was not noticeable on the body of the first set he showed me.

Tony didn't use all of the cast aluminium EMU ends, as I bought two pairs from him. When I was speaking to him at his home when he was still planning the Maroon EMU I thought that he said that the ends would be plastic, but I must have misunderstood or misheard him., or my memory is playing tricks. I don't have one of the 30 Maroon EMU sets to check, but if he had aluminium ends made it would have been odd not to use them. I did think it strange when I contacted him to ask about buying some of the discarded ends from the donor units as I was after 2 pairs of them. He replied that they'd gone but he could let me have some Aluminium ones if I wanted.

 

A lovely man, with great enthusiasm for our hobby. His passing was a great loss.

[BernardTPM]

4 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

Foster also says it is a pity that H/D didn't make a maroon version as it was based on the LMR Class 501. But all the references and pictures of the 501s that I can find say/show it in BR's standard EMU green. So he may be mistaken in thinking that the 501 Watford DC stock was ever painted maroon.

They real ones were only ever green (initially plain MU green, later darker green with lining), blue and finally blue/grey. The only maroon EMUs were the quite different, and definitely main line, Clacton units.