Buying and Selling models to/from Europe

[Mikkel]

So, would this also apply to smaller manufacturers, e.g. Dart Castings?

[Simond]

8 hours ago, MikeB said:

The CE marking requirement to show conformity with safety requirements is not new for toys (which includes some model railway items). I have ten-year old models (eg Hornby, Bemo, Dapol) which have the CE marking on their boxes The need for an authorised representative  in the EU is new, as this provides somebody to hold to account if the self-assessment of conformity is faulty.   What is also new because of Brexit is that the CE marking is being phased out in the UK, being replaced by UKCA marking (for England, Scotland and Wales) and UKNI marking (for Northern Ireland).

 

trouble is, it’ll be simply uneconomic for small companies to comply, and of course many model suppliers are effectively cottage industries.  This will undoubtedly destroy trade and probably cost jobs, yet will not make a perceptible dent in the overall trade figures.

 

The business in which I work has nothing to do with models, but is likely to contract by 10 to 20% as a result of Brexit, simply because it’s too much trouble for customers in continental Europe to deal with UK suppliers. I understand that this seems to be a typical figure.  We have handed our competitors an obvious market advantage.  Amongst our options are setting up an establishment in Europe to address the issue.  I don’t think anyone voted to export jobs. 

 

 

[5944]

9 hours ago, Mikkel said:

So, would this also apply to smaller manufacturers, e.g. Dart Castings?

I guess it depends if small detailing parts are classed as toys. From what I can understand, even a company as big as Dapol will be unable to sell their products without an official importer in the EU. 

[MikeB]

1 hour ago, 5944 said:

I guess it depends if small detailing parts are classed as toys. From what I can understand, even a company as big as Dapol will be unable to sell their products without an official importer in the EU. 

I don't know the actual boundaries, but the Peco points I have clearly say on the packaging, in English, French, German and Spanish "THIS IS NOT A TOY" and there is no CE marking.  So I assume they have a different customs code, and,  since they are manufactured in the UK, they meet the rules of origin and don't attract any duties when sold into the EU.  Whatever, it means manufacturers of model railway items have to understand a lot of rules. 

[etendam]

46 minutes ago, MikeB said:

I don't know the actual boundaries, but the Peco points I have clearly say on the packaging, in English, French, German and Spanish "THIS IS NOT A TOY" and there is no CE marking.  So I assume they have a different customs code, and,  since they are manufactured in the UK, they meet the rules of origin and don't attract any duties when sold into the EU.  Whatever, it means manufacturers of model railway items have to understand a lot of rules. 

Peco should have a CE marking as modeltrain items are imported with a HS code that is a part of Toys. (Track from Peco are connected electrically so they should have electrical safety AND Toy classification) With parts you can use other HS codes but with track not. When picking another HS code than there is the possibility that duties /Tariffs may apply (or a third country tariff - when most parts are not from the UK) This is what modeltrain companies try to avoid as toys are free of duties.

 

Regarding a company like Dart Castings: Every company should investigate (if possible by a notified body as the rules are very complex!) if CE should apply to their product. A locomotive / tram or any other running item with a motor in it MUST have CE. When an Advertisement/brochure/leaflet etc is made with person under 18 years old holding an item of your company then you also MUST have CE. (Even if the folder is 10 years old!). And then you have a long list which products / raw materials that may not in your product otherwise you also must have CE. Are wires soldered with solder that still contains lead? You guessed it - CE applies....

These are just a few examples of the complex rules that goes with CE.

 

If the customs have doubts on an import (Like Peco) than they will hold the shipment until the paperwork is handed over. (This is why you should have a notified body to investigate every product that you produce!) If they say you don't need CE (on paper of course with their Registration number!) than the customs will forward the shipment. Most of the shipments will pass the customs without investigation (>95%) but when they hold an item (and it is a very expensive item) you and the seller aren't very lucky when the item is scrapped by the customs just because the paperwork isn't complete!  If the customs knows a seller can't show the paperwork the next shipments will also investigated.  

 

Ed

[etendam]

5 hours ago, Simond said:

trouble is, it’ll be simply uneconomic for small companies to comply, and of course many model suppliers are effectively cottage industries.  This will undoubtedly destroy trade and probably cost jobs, yet will not make a perceptible dent in the overall trade figures.

 

 

The new rules regarding a EU VAT number, the ending of the VAT free shipments below € 21 and the new CE regulations will be devastating for small / medium businesses that are not in the EU. 

 

I think they should reconsider their trading options, if they haven't done this already as most of the mentioned things above are known for more a year now but not every company has these things high on their priority list !

 

Ed

[Andy Hayter]

8 hours ago, MikeB said:

I don't know the actual boundaries, but the Peco points I have clearly say on the packaging, in English, French, German and Spanish "THIS IS NOT A TOY" and there is no CE marking.  So I assume they have a different customs code, and,  since they are manufactured in the UK, they meet the rules of origin and don't attract any duties when sold into the EU.  Whatever, it means manufacturers of model railway items have to understand a lot of rules. 

 

 

You are probably right that duties will not apply - but being made in the UK is not the deciding factor.  The deciding factor is the amount of added value made within the country.

 

I can remember a situation where we produced a product in the UK.  99% was undoubtedly UK origin however 1% was made up of some very, very expensive additives that came from another country.  We had to very carefully set a minimum sales price that all reps had to follow without exception to ensure that the 99% UK bit had a higher value that the 1% foreign.  If the price the material was sold at fell below that limit the rules of origin would have changed the origin of the entire product - and of course salesmen being salesmen loved to do "special" deals - which had to be stamped on hard.  

 

So to take a hypothetical case, suppose PECO bought their rail from Germany pre-formed and cut to lengths.  And suppose they also bought the plastic for the bases from Germany as well as the other little bits - wire, springs, solder etc.  In order to give the points UK origin they would have to sell the points at more than double the cost of all of these raw materials.  If not they would have to be sold as German origin.  

 

All hypothetical but I hope it illustrates how complex origin rules can be.

[Guest WM183]

This whole mess is so frustrating and pointless. I rolled my eyes so far i saw my own brain.

 

I really hope we can get back to normal, easy trade.

[etendam]

6 hours ago, WM183 said:

This whole mess is so frustrating and pointless. 

I really hope we can get back to normal, easy trade.

 

The UK is setting up something similar......The UKCA mark using UK Approved Body (can be used from 1st Jan 2021, mandatory from 1st Jan 2022).
N.B. Actual UKCA mark on the product does not need to be attached until 1st Jan 2023.

 

As long as there are no agreements regarding the CE and the UKCA the same will apply to EU companies to have products enter the UK. Depending however how well the sales to the UK are going companies will decide whether after this date they will continue trading with the UK.

 

Other companies affected by the EU CE rules and selling items with CE are Kato and Tenshodo (With their new Spuds) and several other manufacturers.

 

Ebay also mention about these new CE rules. Items that (or must) meet CE requirements and doesn't have an authorized representative in the EU will be removed from EU Ebay sites. So it will not only affect non-EU manufacturers but non-EU traders/sellers that sell new/used items as well. Note: there is NO exception for used items as otherwise everyone will classify their items as used! The same applies to Amazon. 

 

https://www.ebay.de/help/selling/selling/produkte-mit-cekennzeichnung-die-eu-verkaufen?id=5225&st=12&pos=1&query=Produkte mit CE-Kennzeichnung in die EU verkaufen&intent=CE mark&docId=HELP1634

 

It is in German but it gives an overview for which items the CE is needed/mandatory (Für welche Produkte gelten die gesetzlichen Vorschriften und Richtlinien?) and has a link to referenced UK sites (CE marking (gov.uk)) 

 

Non-EU Business Sellers on Ebay must also have an EU VAT number (and upload this number on Ebay for approval first!) to continue selling on EU Ebay sites or all their advertisements will be removed on July 1st. Business sellers that offer items on items on Ebay sites outside the EU must also comply to these new rules when they offer shipping to the EU.

 

So some companies that wants to keep selling have about 2 months to get their EU VAT number and appoint an authorised representative in the EU to continue with their sales or change their focus to the internal market. 

 

Ed

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

What a fabulous future of global harmonisation we have, it's as if everything is being done to put as many barriers in the way of trade between countries/nations, can these people not realise this is exactly the opposite of what should be happening, oh, but wait, we're dealing with politicians!

 

Mike.

[Guest WM183]

So for those of us in the EU getting British models is soon to go from frustrating to impossible, and for those in the UK modelling continental railroads, yet more barriers which may also prove impossible. 

 

This seems like the opposite of progress eh?

[Jol Wilkinson]

I looked into CE compliance many years ago and it is my understanding that a manufacturer had to to be able to prove their products complied if requested to do so. This meant compiling a dossier identifying the source of materials, proof of compliance for pre-assembled bought in components (i.e. the manufacturers documentation), the manufacturing process and how that met the various regulations, etc. It didn't mean that products had to pass any CE "test" which is how some people interpreted CE marking and how something of a myth developed that there would be considerable increase in cost for small manufacturers.

[Kylestrome]

10 hours ago, WM183 said:

This whole mess is so frustrating and pointless.

 

I liken it to the use of DDT; kill everything in order to get rid of mosquitoes.

 

David

[DCB]

I have this vision of smugglers paddling their dingy into some distant Cornish cove at midnight with muffled Oars and loading up parcels to send from a French post office...

 

[Simond]

4 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I looked into CE compliance many years ago and it is my understanding that a manufacturer had to to be able to prove their products complied if requested to do so. This meant compiling a dossier identifying the source of materials, proof of compliance for pre-assembled bought in components (i.e. the manufacturers documentation), the manufacturing process and how that met the various regulations, etc. It didn't mean that products had to pass any CE "test" which is how some people interpreted CE marking and how something of a myth developed that there would be considerable increase in cost for small manufacturers.

in general, you are correct, that many requirements can/could be met by a combination of self-certification, and the possession of the so-called Technical Construction File, which detailed the contents of the product, the processes used to create it, and any testing and certification undertaken.  Much of it is able to be carried out at relatively low expense with little requirement for specialist laboratory equipment.  That said, if your product contains eg lithium batteries, or is electrically operated, you’re probably looking at either some expensive investments, or outsourced testing to ensure you meet the requirements.  As an example I spent around £250k a few years back setting up a lab to test lithium batteries.

 

please don’t underestimate the costs of meeting & maintaining the TCF, and pray nobody decides that if it’s in English, the EU will no longer accept it, as the cost of translation would be painful.  Neither should one underestimate the costs of validation & certification generally.  It’s a significant part of the development cost of a new product.  Then again, it’s much cheaper than defending a lawsuit for negligence or worse, if one of your customers were injured by a poorly designed, untested product.

 

I rather despair when the whingers moan about “Brussels red tape”, it’s the same red tape that prevents them suffering H&S related workplace injuries, their food being toxic, and their kids getting lead poisoning from chewing their toy cars.  
 

it’s all part of the cost of doing business.  Why it was necessary to implement Brexit, and thereby to dramatically increase those costs, to nobody’s obvious benefit, I have no idea.  I’m sure somebody’s better off as a result, I’m damn sure it’s not the man in the street.

[D9020 Nimbus]

If these rules had been implemented and Britain had still been part of the EU it would have put Union Mills Models out of business — the Isle of Man was never part of the EU and, as they are a one-man business, wouldn't be able to afford any additional costs. Their products are not CE certified.

 

That said, it has been possible to import items such as model trains from the US to the UK without any issues—such as the Bachmann "Thomas" range of narrow-gauge items.

 

I suspect that it will be much harder for British-outline modellers in the EU than the reverse — the "authorised representative" rule will probably be harder than the certification in the long-term. No problem for the big boys such as Hornby or Bachmann, but for smaller firms (with the exception of Accurascale) it will not be worth their while to appoint EU agents — and there are many such firms now in the UK market.

Edited April 30, 2021 by D9020 Nimbus

[andyman7]

I agree that it is very frustrating to have what was a pretty seamless trading experience so disrupted. However, these things are cyclical - both Meccano and Triang for many years built alliances of separate plants across different territories to deal with protectionist trading policies - any Dinky collector will be aware of the French Dinky range made initially at Bobigny near Paris, then in Calais - these models were with very limited exceptions never offered for sale in the UK despite being the product of a UK established company (at least until 1971). Triang had French, Spanish, Australian, New Zealand and South African subsidiaries at various times.

 

Over time as international trading was liberalised these fell away, until you get to the point where everyone forgets just how restrictive things used to be and it all seemed very attractive to vote to 'take back control'. So now the ordinary person gets to experience this friction, which over time lead I expect to streamlining and liberalisation, and then the whole process can start over again. C'est la vie....

[Ron Ron Ron]

There's confusing advice on the various courier's web sites.

 

Sending a parcel from the UK to France, DHL say that certain items are prohibited from import to France, including items such as Eraser rubbers, Pyjamas and Nightwear that contain any man-made fibres, Viagra and Vitamins ?????

 

For posting to France, The Royal Mail has a list of prohibited products, which are "not permitted in the mail under any circumstances".

In addition to the sort of things you'd imagine, such as foodstuffs, plants, hazardous materials, weapons etc; it also includes....

 

"Toys, games and sports requisites; parts and accessories thereof" and...

"Printed books, newspapers, pictures and other products of the printing industry; manuscripts, typescripts and plans".

 

The Royal Mails's general notes on the matter say....., 

 

"Toys, games and sports requisites; parts and accessories thereof

The importation of toys is subject to an indication on the toy or its packaging of:

– the name, corporate name or brand and the Community address of the manufacturer, its representative or the importer;

– the EC symbol.

The importer must have, for the disposal of the Customs, a production file containing information on the means used to determine that the toys comply with safety requirements".

 

"Books, newspapers, booklets, publications and printed matter imported from other countries are subject, in the interests of public order, to special restrictions and conditions, particularly to checking by specially appointed officials of the Ministry of the Interior, who shall have authority to determine whether books and other articles should be admitted into the country or not".

 

The UPS web site directs you to a minefield of links to various baffling UK government, EU and French customs web pages, if you wish to obtain information on what's what.

 

 

 

.

[etendam]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

"Toys, games and sports requisites; parts and accessories thereof

The importation of toys is subject to an indication on the toy or its packaging of:

– the name, corporate name or brand and the Community address of the manufacturer, its representative or the importer;

– the EC symbol.

The importer must have, for the disposal of the Customs, a production file containing information on the means used to determine that the toys comply with safety requirements".

.

 

The royal mail has taken some early steps...but they make it directly clear that there is NO difference for business or private sellers and as modeltrains are classified as toys by the customs (even if companies say otherwise) it also answers the question regarding if you must have CE or not for smaller companies. You simply can't ship anymore without CE.

 

It is exactly what Jol Wilkinson & Simond said. CE is for MOST companies / products nothing more than a self assessment.....

2 hours ago, Simond said:

in general, you are correct, that many requirements can/could be met by a combination of self-certification, and the possession of the so-called Technical Construction File, which detailed the contents of the product, the processes used to create it, and any testing and certification undertaken.  Much of it is able to be carried out at relatively low expense with little requirement for specialist laboratory equipment.  

 

but now suddenly you need to have an authorised representative in the EU and as this representative is from that date responsible for issues regarding the safety AND they want guarantees to make sure the CE is done properly. I don't think everyone will take the self-certification for granted and they want much more proof where they are responsible for. So it will not be so easy just to appoint a representative.......

 

Ed

[Guest WM183]

Does this mean a private seller could no longer sell a model train to someone in the EU if they're in the UK, and vice versa?

[etendam]

You can still ship model trains items from the EU to the UK as the UKCA will be mandatory from Jan 1st 2023.

 

How it will work from the UK to the EU (when sending a used model train) is not certain. Normally you would ship it as a collectors item but as mentioned above France already has strict regulations that you are not allowed to sell Model trains (with the HS code for Modeltrains) anymore without CE. CE however is impossible to used items, so I don't know how this will be solved either.

 

Ed

 

 

[Mikkel]

My emergency plan: Hold the orders, save the money, then take a train 1-2 times annually to a UK exhibition with lots of small traders.

 

Not much of an emergency actually, I'm beginning to like the idea!

[Enterprisingwestern]

17 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

My emergency plan: Hold the orders, save the money, then take a train 1-2 times annually to a UK exhibition with lots of small traders.

 

Not much of an emergency actually, I'm beginning to like the idea!

 

Then you've got to run the gauntlet of customs going home, that could be an issue.

 

Mike.

[Simond]

I suspect the issue arises to ensure that “toys” are suitable for the age range for which they are intended.  I believe that all new toys are marked with the “not for babies” or “for adult collectors” already in the uk.
 

As an aside, despite it being possible to buy an AK47 over the counter, it’s illegal to sell Kinder eggs in the US as they believe that toys and sweets should not be mixed.  Strange how risk perception varies.  There’s info on Wikipedia if anyone wants to go look.

 

in answer to Mike’s point, I don’t think you have any issue carrying items for personal use across the border, well, presuming the items/substances involved are not in themselves prohibited.  I suspect claiming the half kilo of hash was for personal use may carry little weight in subsequent discussions about one's immediate future...  and of course there are customs value limits too.

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

16 minutes ago, Simond said:

and of course there are customs value limits too.

 

That's more the point I was making, it soon adds up.

 

Mike.