SMP/Marcway copperclad turnout review

[hayfield]

Many of us oldies were brought up firstly being able to buy these kits from our local model railway shops, secondly these were our introduction into track building, after a discussion in another thread I decided to buy a new one to see what you get today and give a review of this product. I will both compare it to what has been available in the past and to where the hobby is now.

 

 

As I said these kits originally were cheap, available and complete needing only a soldering iron to get started, the old kits even included solder and a very basic track gauge, plus a nicely designed glass fibre tiebar.

 

I ordered the kit by phone and who ever answered it was very polite and helpful. I was informed there may be a delay as these kits are now packed to order and buying the components is a more economical. Well I placed the order in November and it arrived yesterday the cost being £16.50 including postage. The kits are advertised at £7.95 , the invoice states £9.50, postage is a whacking £7. I am not too bothered, as had I been informed of these prices I would still have bought the kit, but at these prices I would have expected a higher level of service than waiting 6-8 weeks for delivery. I must say it was packed very well 

 

 

This is the contents of the new kits, a plan, instructions,5 lengths of rail, 3 long and 3 short lengths of copperclad strip. Gone are the nice tiebars, wire, solder and basic gauge

 

The plus factor is that also gone is the awful paxillin sleeper strip for some nice quality glass fibre strip. 5 9" lengths of rail is sufficient and tree and a half 10.5" lengths of copperclad, not as generous  as in the past 

 

The plan is definitely dated, being of a fixed radii rather than to either a prototypical design or RTR, but it has totally un prototypical bent timber at the heal end. Two other issues with the plan, firstly the points of the switchblades end in-between the timbers not on one and the SET point is not indicated or built into the design as it should be

 

 

The instructions are better than the old SMP ones, but still relate to the SMP tiebars  which are not supplied anymore, no mention of the SET in the curved stock rail. The instructions advise a different sequence of build, this is not a fault but some may find slightly harder to accomplish.

 

I am reviewing this kit with a view as these kits were, which was both an entrance into track building for a newcomer (into track building) and a cost efficient method of building turnouts and crossings 

 

I will try to be fair to a retailer/ manufacturer as they do have a business to run and unless they make profits they cannot stay in business. In fairness to Marcway they did tell me its far more economical  to buy the separate components, certainly their copperclad strip and rail seem excellent value when bought in bulk separately, their rail is comparable to a well known RTR manufacturer, I expect if buying in bulk P&P is OK

 

As for the kit, £9.50 seems OK, postage I feel is a bit over the top. A newcomer will also need at least one track gauge, solder and flux.

 

For those interested in the copperclad timbers, they are single sided glassfibre, just over 4mm wide and 1.2mm thick 

 

I will make a start in a couple of days

Edited January 8, 2021 by hayfield

[hayfield]

 

I decided not to use the SMP plan, its just not quite right. I printed off an A5 template from Templot, if I use the 2 longest stock rails they are just the right length, depending on how generous Marcway have been with the timber strip I may have to add the odd timber.

 

My usual method of sticking the Template to the building board with masking tape, then adding a piece of thick tracing paper, and laid two thin lines of double sided tape to hold the timbers in place whilst the turnout is built

 

There is nothing too wrong with the SMP plan that a builder can get round, you never know someone might want it

[hayfield]

 

Fitting out a bedroom at the moment so progress is very slow, The timbers were all cut very carefully to minimise waste, but I ended up 4 short, foolishly I used 1.6 mm strip (watching football) I will change these to 4mm before progressing. I like to use a straight edge to keep the timbers in line

 

 

A close up showing the electrical breaks marked out, before commencing soldering I will break the foil on each timber individually with a couple of light strokes with a hacksaw. Some prefer to use a slitting disc which is much quicker, but not only cuts a deep slot but also is not as neat. I rather make a neater job as time is mine own. I also test each timber for electrical conductivity, much easier to find faults now, plus you can test under power whilst building the turnout

[Rowsley17D]

A very useful introduction for those wishing to eventually build their own turnouts, John. 

[hayfield]

As house hold matters (building flat packs) has taken precedence work on the turnout has been at a standstill 

 

 

Filling up the vees is easy especially when you have a vee filing block, still for the odd turnout a simple joint would be fine

 

 

The same jig can be used to form an accurate angle, again nothing wrong soldering each rail in place over the plan.

 

 

[hayfield]

 

I decided to have a go at the turnout whilst the match was on, the first thing I did was to gap and test each timber. The job has to be done and if you use a slitting disc its quick but looks like it has been attacked with a chain saw. I mark out the track centre lines and draw the isolation breaks. Then a quick pass individually with a hacksaw breaks the copper foil, I don't want deep cuts.

 

I then check that each gap has lost conductivity. If this turnout is to go on the layout its a good time to fill all the gaps then sand flat when dry

 

I find it much easier to fit the vee first, I know its dead centre, others start with the straight stock rail, this way you run the risk of the vee being off centre

 

 

I now start fitting the straight stock rail, solder the vee end first using a gauge, then solder the rail to the first timber at the other end.

 

 

Next I use the steel rule to keep the stock rail straight, tacking a couple every 5 timbers, once done soldering the rest

 

 

The wing rails are easy to make, mark out the length and 2 bends, I finish then off in the Vee jig by giving the bend a quick tap. But its easy enough to do by eye and you will use gauges to fit them anyway

 

 

I am used to fitting the wing rails next

 

 

Then I start making the curved stock rail, The SMP plan does not have the SET marked on it. Its a simple bend but so important as it allows the switch rail to sit flush, a basic curve will not do this. Again I gauge the rail to the vee (and wing rail if its there) then solder up the stock rail, I then solder up the rest of the stock rail up to the second red mark (plaining)

 

 

A close up view of the of the toe end of the turnout, the SET mart is clearly visible. More about it when I fit the switch rails

 

I have found the rail a bit weird to use, firstly it needs cleaning before soldering. Secondly it feels thinner in the gauges, thirdly it feels much softer and easier to bend

 

SMP rail 1.91 mm tall  0.77mm wide

 

C&L rail 1.92 mm tall  0.94 mm wide

 

Copperclad turnouts are a super introduction into track building and to a certain this basic kit is no exception, you do get an instruction sheet which is OK except no mention of making a SET in the curved rail, its not complete any more, no basic gauge, or solder and the plan could be better. But I guess what can you get for a tenner these days, but the postage is excessive for what was basically a large letter. I do like the single sided copperclad timbers, for me the rail is too soft, but it will not affect the performance. I must admit its enjoyable going back to building something from my early modelling days

 

 

[brossard]

I like that you are doing this review John.  Copper clad turnouts are a great way to start making your own turnouts.  I hope others take the plunge.

 

Thinking back I started by re-manufacturing old code 100 Peco turnouts by stripping away the plastic timbers and re-using the rail.  I still had to construct a new crossing though.

 

I agree that the postage is a bit breathtaking.  I can't fathom how in country postage can be that expensive unless the parcel is an odd size.

 

John

[hayfield]

Its a great shame modellers in the UK cannot access easily and affordably basic kits, in this kit there is basically 1 m of rail at a bulk price per meter at £1.15- £1.60, and PCB strip which would cost between £2.10- £3.80. At the most the retail raw material cost of my kit is £3.25 - £5.40. Plans and instructions are available from other sources

 

I am almost tempted to buy a pack of copperclad and offer a few starter kits at cost + post and packing, but being a bit more generous with the quantities of materials. I would need to check with Marcway re cost of their PCB & P&P

 

If anyone's interested let me know, I would just pass on the costs I incure.

[Rowsley17D]

11 hours ago, brossard said:

I agree that the postage is a bit breathtaking.  I can't fathom how in country postage can be that expensive unless the parcel is an odd size.

 

John

 

It's highly likely a turnout kit would go by Large Letter postage £1.29 (1st) or 96p (2nd) plus the cost of a box about 60p.

[Stephen Freeman]

I rather suspect that the carriage for a larger order would be more acceptable, as I doubt they are really interested in just sending one kit. After all it costs much the same in time and effort to despatch 10 kits as it would 1. I must admit these days the only orders I tend to put their way are very occasional and only for some odd sized PCB strips.

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

I rather suspect that the carriage for a larger order would be more acceptable, as I doubt they are really interested in just sending one kit. After all it costs much the same in time and effort to despatch 10 kits as it would 1. I must admit these days the only orders I tend to put their way are very occasional and only for some odd sized PCB strips.

 

I am glad most other retailers doing Mail order take a different stance. I accept that dealing with one small order is inefficient in both time and profit, but we all were brought up on these kits and many larger repeat orders were forth coming

 

This company is advertising that these kits are available, took 8 weeks to assemble the kit, the price they advertise is cheaper than the price charged, neither is their a minimum order value stated. I have tried phoning today to place a further order without luck. I will try again in a few days

[griffgriff]

Hello,

 

I’ve enjoyed reading this (as I’ve enjoyed reading your point construction thread) and appreciate your thoughts, tips and explanations.

 

Where am I? Well, I’ve built a few copper a clad points in the past as well as some SMP plastic kits. I have components to build plastic chaired track but I think I need to brush up on a few basic turnouts before I venture out in that direction.  
 

Producing 21stC turnout kits are a good idea but, as you say, the raw materials are out there and, realistically, you’re paying for the postage of quite heavy items twice.  The main weakness of the kits seam to be plans. I’ve not come across adequately labelled plans that are easy to follow by  inexperienced  builders.  I know there are plans aplenty but they are not, as far as I’m aware,  intended for the novice. Would it be possible to prepare some points that can be printed sent cheaply by letter or even printed off?  
 

That might get me going

 

Just an idea, regards Griff

[hayfield]

Griff

 

Are you asking for instructions for copperclad built turnouts or Chaired track ?

 

Four and a half years ago I started a thread Simple P4 turnout construction, the methods used could be transferred to most scale/gauge options, for 00 gauge you need to use 00 gauge length timbers and of course plan

 

Probably my work bench is too large now to be interesting, perhaps its time I did a new tutorial ?

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by hayfield

[john new]

24 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

I am glad most other retailers doing Mail order take a different stance. I accept that dealing with one small order is inefficient in both time and profit, but we all were brought up on these kits and many larger repeat orders were forth coming

 

This company is advertising that these kits are available, took 8 weeks to assemble the kit, the price they advertise is cheaper than the price charged, neither is their a minimum order value stated. I have tried phoning today to place a further order without luck. I will try again in a few days

Epitome of how not to do retail.

 

My only comment on the postage is perhaps they see it is a flat fee for assembling the components into a kit and then the P&P. The OP does say that they had said it was better to buy the bits individually.

[griffgriff]

Hi again Hayfield,

 

I was thinking an upgrade of the SMP copper clad plans; clearer and labelled.

 

Griff

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, griffgriff said:

Hi again Hayfield,

 

I was thinking an upgrade of the SMP copper clad plans; clearer and labelled.

 

Griff

 

I guess they do not sell too well, hence items are packed to order, then you have several kits in 2 gauges

 

Personally I see the way C&L have gone is to have a generic pack of chairs and timbers, rail sold in 2m packs then include a plan of the customers choice. this falls down when SMP sells scissors and junctions.

 

I guess most will have a more modern plan or a bespoke plan from the likes of Templot, this is fine for the hardened track builder, But this is not enticing folk to have a dabble.

 

What might kick start it is Wayne's basic simple to build turnout kits, it breaks the ice and destroys the myth track building is difficult. 

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, john new said:

Epitome of how not to do retail.

 

My only comment on the postage is perhaps they see it is a flat fee for assembling the components into a kit and then the P&P. The OP does say that they had said it was better to buy the bits individually.

 

John

 

Sadly gone are the days when a model shop will buy a dozen SMP kits and said modeller can buy one off the shelf.

 

The cost of assembling a kit is within the kit price, whilst I have stated the retail cost of the components I doubt if the material's cost within the kit is very much, and packing the contents is just a few moments. The kit is not a special order, but a standard stock item. My biggest concern is the availability of an item for a newcomer, and sadly there is no alternative available at this time. Phil at C&L is happy to supply copperclad strip and rail, but not kits

 

The other thing is SMP turnout kits sell very well on eBay, there is a small market for them.

[brossard]

9 hours ago, griffgriff said:

Hi again Hayfield,

 

I was thinking an upgrade of the SMP copper clad plans; clearer and labelled.

 

Griff

 

If you are after decent plans and just want standard geometry turnouts, print off the plans that Peco supply on their website of their products.

 

https://peco-uk.com/collections/turn-out-crossing-plans

 

I used these extensively to build my 7mm turnouts.

 

John

[St Enodoc]

Found this by chance John. I hope encourages folk to have a go.

 

Some thoughts:

 

On 08/01/2021 at 20:51, hayfield said:

Gone are the nice tiebars, wire, solder and basic gauge

It's a shame the little gauge isn't there any more. It was basic but it worked and without it beginners will be stuck. I wouldn't miss the tiebars, I found them too complicated. No reason for cutting and packing solder. Anyone building a layout and looking to have a go at points will almost certainly have their own.

 

On 08/01/2021 at 20:51, hayfield said:

the copperclad timbers, they are single sided glassfibre,

Prevents mystery shorts from the underside!

 

On 10/01/2021 at 03:10, hayfield said:

My usual method of sticking the Template to the building board with masking tape, then adding a piece of thick tracing paper, and laid two thin lines of double sided tape to hold the timbers in place whilst the turnout is built

I stick the timbers to the paper with stick glue, e.g. Pritt or UHU. It's water-soluble so when you've finished you just soak the paper off.

 

On 10/01/2021 at 03:10, hayfield said:

I decided not to use the SMP plan, its just not quite right.

I invariably use C&L templates. They're not perfect either but better than the SMP ones.

 

On 21/01/2021 at 09:59, hayfield said:

The SMP plan does not have the SET marked on it. Its a simple bend but so important

This cannot be stated too often or emphasised too much.

 

On 21/01/2021 at 09:59, hayfield said:

I have found the rail a bit weird to use, firstly it needs cleaning before soldering. Secondly it feels thinner in the gauges, thirdly it feels much softer and easier to bend

 

SMP rail 1.91 mm tall  0.77mm wide

 

C&L rail 1.92 mm tall  0.94 mm wide

I have a set of old Precision Scale Models gauges, which match SMP rail perfectly. C&L rail won't fit them.

 

I've demonstrated building copperclad points at shows several times. I usually comment to interested folk that their first point will be rubbish, their second will work but might not look too great, but after their third they will never look back.

[hayfield]

6 hours ago, brossard said:

 

If you are after decent plans and just want standard geometry turnouts, print off the plans that Peco supply on their website of their products.

 

https://peco-uk.com/collections/turn-out-crossing-plans

 

I used these extensively to build my 7mm turnouts.

 

John

 

John

 

The Peco drawings are like SMP's in being basically wrong in several areas

 

1 The timbers are to H0 scale. their spacing and size are too small

2 The switch blades stop between timbers not on one

3 Switch length and crossing angles not prototypical

4 The longest timber being bent not straight

5 When printed need enlarging as prints smaller than full size

 

So much easier to print off a Templot Template (plan), which if needed can easily be altered (curved etc)

[hayfield]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Found this by chance John. I hope encourages folk to have a go.

 

Some thoughts:

 

It's a shame the little gauge isn't there any more. It was basic but it worked and without it beginners will be stuck. I wouldn't miss the tiebars, I found them too complicated. No reason for cutting and packing solder. Anyone building a layout and looking to have a go at points will almost certainly have their own.

 

Prevents mystery shorts from the underside!

 

I stick the timbers to the paper with stick glue, e.g. Pritt or UHU. It's water-soluble so when you've finished you just soak the paper off.

 

I invariably use C&L templates. They're not perfect either but better than the SMP ones.

 

This cannot be stated too often or emphasised too much.

 

I have a set of old Precision Scale Models gauges, which match SMP rail perfectly. C&L rail won't fit them.

 

I've demonstrated building copperclad points at shows several times. I usually comment to interested folk that their first point will be rubbish, their second will work but might not look too great, but after their third they will never look back.

 

 

The C&L plans are good and do have some chair detail on them, but also fail to emphasise the importance of the set, which many novice builders miss

 

I think now with the advent of the internet its far easier to find tutorials which will assist the novice builders to be able to build something decent which works first time, plus awareness of gauges is more widespread. sadly 00 gauge is the poor cousin on this front

[brossard]

5 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

John

 

The Peco drawings are like SMP's in being basically wrong in several areas

 

1 The timbers are to H0 scale. their spacing and size are too small

2 The switch blades stop between timbers not on one

3 Switch length and crossing angles not prototypical

4 The longest timber being bent not straight

5 When printed need enlarging as prints smaller than full size

 

So much easier to print off a Templot Template (plan), which if needed can easily be altered (curved etc)

 

Yes, quite right John.

 

Your points are good.  However, any builder of turnouts should have some basic knowledge of how they look and go together.  Timber spacing can be rectified by gluing them to the correct spacing.  Point 2 is an easy fix.  00 is pretty far from prototypical.  Peco's bullhead turnouts seem to be more accurate but I haven't seen a template for them.

 

As for printing, the templates include a ruler so the accuracy can be checked.  Some printers seem to have funny defaults.

 

As to templates from other sources, the only one I can think of is C&L which are quite good even though the set is ignored.  EMGS does a set for EM. It would be useful if you or anyone else knows of other sources.

 

The turnout builder should keep an eye open for Rice's Finescale Trackwork (dated and out of print but has a great discussion on the prototype).  The other book I heartily recommend is Trax 2 by Jeff Geary, https://www.amazon.co.uk/Design-Construction-published-Kestrel-Railway/dp/B00EKYQMWC/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=jeff+geary&qid=1611326742&sr=8-3.

 

This book contains a CD with a track planning software.  I have used it quite a lot to generate turnout templates.  The book's step by step instructions have enabled me to build anything up to a double slip.

 

John

Edited January 22, 2021 by brossard

[Izzy]

There are two other publications by the 2mm Scale Association that I would highly recommend ‘Track’ & ‘Point Rodding’. You don’t need to be a member and they can be sent worldwide. An awful lot in them is applicable whatever the scale, and in Track the late Geoff Jones features a lot of simple home produced jigs to aid construction. I think with track making it’s helpful to those whom don’t know to explain why certain features are best, like making a set in the stock rail. Where it needs to be, and why, and  these cover lots of aspects like this.

[Philou]

For someone curious - what is SET? Thanks.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: Copper-clad, pah!! Beechwood strip and cobbler's snobs, that's all we had when I were a lad ................

Edited January 22, 2021 by Philou

[Robert Shrives]

39 minutes ago, Philou said:

For someone curious - what is SET? Thanks.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: Copper-clad, pah!! Beechwood strip and cobbler's snobs, that's all we had when I were a lad ................

Easily said, I a simple bend to offset rail so the blade can fit in and give the straight run, well a straight run with out the risk of a flange detecting the tip of the blade and throwing off in disgust!  Easier to do with bull head rail , more filling required in Flat bottom blade and stock rail.  I might be a bit crude in how I achieve it but using a pair of pliers with rail passing the jaws vertically and squeezing gently and then straightening out rail  gives an offset. Just enough for blade to sit into. The logic is that on the curved rail the wheel tends to run "hard on the rail head so the blade offset of a few thou not seen  so no set required - but it could  be added just not common as it can affect the ride on the straight route.