Star under running number on cab side

[sncf231e]

I have seen some pictures of locomotives with a star under the running number on the cab side. I assume it has means something, but what?

Regards

Fred

[LMS2968]

Which engines? If they're 8Fs, it means the wheels have been balanced to allow them to run at 50 mph.

[sandwich station]

17 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

Which engines? If they're 8Fs, it means the wheels have been balanced to allow them to run at 50 mph.

 

At what speed would 8F's normally run at?

[kevinlms]

23 minutes ago, sandwich station said:

 

At what speed would 8F's normally run at?

As required by the working timetable. 

The idea of balancing some only, was to have a fleet for the higher speed services. 

[LMS2968]

BR was introducing a series of fast fitted goods, generally referred to as FF1 and FF2, which would run at higher than normal goods train speeds. These were generally worked by mixed traffic, and some express passenger engines, but could also be worked by starred 8Fs.

[Metropolitan H]

And for the record, what were the normal operating speeds of the majority of "Unfitted" (or Loose coupled etc) Mineral or freight trains using the normal "British" (Short wheelbase) wagons??

 

My understanding is no more than 25 m.p.h and probably more like 10 - 12 m.p.h.? - Is that about right?

 

Regards

Chris H

 

 

[LMS2968]

I once read - can't remember where - that the AVERAGE speed while running was 19mph, but when the time lost standing in loops and sidings was calculated in, this dropped to 12mph. Maxima would have been higher, of course.

[Nearholmer]

4 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

time lost standing in loops and sidings was calculated in, this dropped to 12mph.

 

I'm sure I've seen 11 or 12mph cited too, in a book that I no longer have called something like "Freight Train Operation", written in the 1920s for professional railway managers. IIRC it was the average transit speed of a wagon, from start of journey to end, including all running, waiting, re-marshalling etc en-route, rather than for a train. There was also a % figure for what proportion of the time the wagon was actually moving (low, but I can't recall how low). The book devoted lots of words and diagrams to describing how things could be improved upon by various means, much of which didn't come to pass until the 1960s and beyond.

 

Bob Essery's book on freight train operation for railway modellers goes into all this in fair detail too.

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

I once read - can't remember where - that the AVERAGE speed while running was 19mph, but when the time lost standing in loops and sidings was calculated in, this dropped to 12mph. Maxima would have been higher, of course.

There were two completely separate sets of figures.  What is being discussed here is the timed average speed given by the point-to-point times in the WTTs and that was in any event relatively low for unfitted trains with wagons with grease axleboxes and additionally trans with grease boxes needed to be stopped for examination more frequently that traijns g vformed wholly of vehicles with oil boxes.

 

Nearholnner has broadly identified the other average speed although in actual fact it was calculated from the journey time of trains so it didn't include getting a wagon to or from the train in the first place (that was calculated as Average Journey Length - measured in days - and not as Average Train Speed).  Average Train Speed was in fact calculated using details entered on Guard's Journals and it was still going on in the 1960s when it was known as the Freight Train Group Return.  The results of those calculations was what the railway (BR by then of course but it had been no different in the days of the Big Four) quoted as 'the average speed of freight trains' and it was low because it included time standing in loops etc.

 

And it is, rather worryingly, something over 50 years since I was involved in preparing Freight Train Group Return information using Guarfds Journals or writing my own version of a journal where a Guard hadn't done one - using Control Office records.  One particular one I can remember was a 120 mph Class 6 freight train where the Guard rather obviously didn't seem to pay much attention to properly recording passing times.

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

There were two completely separate sets of figures.  What is being discussed here is the timed average speed given by the point-to-point times in the WTTs and that was in any event relatively low for unfitted trains with wagons with grease axleboxes and additionally trans with grease boxes needed to be stopped for examination more frequently that traijns g vformed wholly of vehicles with oil boxes.

 

...

I doubt if there were any grease axleboxed wagons left by the time the Stanier 8F class were rebalanced for 50mph running.

It was clear in Lancashire in the sixties that far more of these locomotives had been given the modifications than there was appropriate work for them. Having said that they could be seen on the heavier parcels trains even in August 68

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I doubt if there were any grease axleboxed wagons left by the time the Stanier 8F class were rebalanced for 50mph running.

It was clear in Lancashire in the sixties that far more of these locomotives had been given the modifications than there was appropriate work for them. Having said that they could be seen on the heavier parcels trains even in August 68

The Instructions in respect of grease axlebox wagons lasted a very long time -  until at least 1960 in fact - which indicates there were probably still some about. even that late.  And 1960 post dates the use of the star symbol on 8Fs by at least two years.

 

It wasn't entirely unusual to find occasional survivals of old wagons although mainly in departmental stock.   For example although only part way through TOPS implementation in 1974 the oldest vehicle recorded on the system by then (so still in use) had been built in the 1890s.

[LMS2968]

Just to get back to the original topic, I hold several BR memos on the subject of rebalancing, starting in 1946! The engines were built by the LMS, the other three grouped railways and the private builders, often with different specifications and for different destinations. By this time the war was over and some rationalisation was called for; the engines in service had three stages of reciprocating balance: 50%, 40% and Nil. At that time, the problem was damaged drawgear and dragboxes by some engines, but by the late 1950s things had changed: first there was a need to work faster, fitted trains; but while it was known in 1946 which engines had what stage of balance, this had changed with engines exchanging full and even individual wheelsets at overhauls, so the status of no particular loco could be readily determined, or even if the balance of one axle agreed with any other. This led to a survey on sheds to establish what axles were below which engines, and which engines could then be used at higher speeds.