Stations with two signal boxes

[ColHut]

I was wondering how train signalling worked on absolute block double track lines where a station had a signal box at both ends to control traffic, presumably because of the distance limitations on hand worked signals in the 1930s.  Evesham LMS springs to mind when it had a North and South box.  
 

Was the Starter for  one the Home for the other and slotted or some other arrangement?

 

regards

[Michael Hodgson]

Yes, length of rodding (points rather than signals)  was the reason for two (or quite often more) boxes at a big station.  There was a Board of Trade limit on how far that could be.  The limit varied over the years - increasing because of technical improvements.

 

It was quite common for the starter of one box to be the home of the next, and for the signals to be slotted.  There were typically more block instruments between adjacent station boxes because of multiple through platforms - any bays would not need them of course, being worked solely from that end.

 

Block working tended to be modified, with the Train Approaching (1-2-1) signal often being authorised.  Otherwise non-stopping trains would be delayed.

[Michael Hodgson]

The distant signal off generally meant the train had a clear run not only past the first box but right through the station.  So the slotting arrangements usually meant both boxes had to pull a lever to clear that signal.  

 

Another complication of having two boxes at a station was the need for trains to change engines in the block section, run round (perhaps running wrong line through the station), reverse, attach or detach vehicles, etc.  So there were several block regulations covering these situations.

 

Once motor points became available, the requirement to have two boxes could be lifted.  You would reduce to one box, saving on wages, motorize any points too far away to work by rodding, and motorise signals or perhaps replace with colour lights where the wire run would have it it too difficult a pull.  Such rationalisation was common during the BR era.  If there was a level crossing at the station, the box at that end would usually be the one kept.

[Poor Old Bruce]

ISTR some small stations in Scotland which were crossing places on single track lines. Was it between Inverness and Aberdeen? There were small boxes at each end of the passing loop with a single signalman to do all the work, which must have ben fun at times. I think some of them had a bike to go back and forth between the two boxes when trains were passing.

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 minutes ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

ISTR some small stations in Scotland which were crossing places on single track lines. Was it between Inverness and Aberdeen? There were small boxes at each end of the passing loop with a single signalman to do all the work, which must have ben fun at times. I think some of them had a bike to go back and forth between the two boxes when trains were passing.

 

Perth - Inverness - Thurso/Wick. The loops were very long for military freight traffic to Scapa Flow. So yes, the one signalman would use a bike to get from one box to the other.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

ISTR some small stations in Scotland which were crossing places on single track lines. Was it between Inverness and Aberdeen? There were small boxes at each end of the passing loop with a single signalman to do all the work, which must have ben fun at times. I think some of them had a bike to go back and forth between the two boxes when trains were passing.

Yes, that a completely different approach.  The boxes at each end weren't block posts, but a normally unmanned lever frame in a structure that looked much the same as a signal box anywhere else in the UK, but there was no block working between them or from adjoining stations.   The single line instruments were housed in the main station building, so that was really the only signal box for block working purposes.   Small single line passing places in England and Wales were often able to get away with only one signal box provided it was in the middle of the station, as the pointwork at each end was (just) within the permitted distance.  I think the original arrangement in these Scottish stations was that the station master was in charge of the instruments and a porter would be sent out as required to work the frame.  Bikes were introduced later when stations could only justify one employee.  There was a write up in Modern Railways a few years ago when that last such instance of that practice ceased.  

[APOLLO]

During WW2 Wigan North Western was resignalled by the LMS (Wigan Wallgate also). 4 aspect colour light signals were installed but all (or most) points were rod operated. Three new ARP (Air raid precautions - built like brick sh*thouses) signal boxes were built. At the south end Wigan No 1 controlled both the WCML & the L&Y Wallgate to Manchester line which interconnected here. Wigan No2 was at the north end of Wigan NW and Wallgate box was at the west of Wallgate at the junction of the Liverpool Exchange & Southport lines.

 

Wigan No 1 & 2 went around 1973 when Warrington power box took over.

 

Wallgate ARP box still in use, controlling the Liverpool & Southport lines, LED signals replaced the old ones a few tears ago. Electric points now.

 

 

Wigan No 2, train has just crossed the bridge in the above photo

 

 

Wigan No 1, only photo I can find, sort of two boxes back to back, L&Y to left, WCML to right.

 

 

How these boxes operated with each other I do not know.

 

Brit15

[Edwin_m]

Is Stockport the only station that still has boxes at each end of the platform?  Here the boxes are at the arrival ends of the platforms, which I guess makes it easier for the signallers to see tail lamps of trains passing the box, although I guess Stockport is fully track circuited by now.  

 

Shrewsbury nearly qualifies too I guess.  Both stations are probably busy enough that combining the boxes wouldn't reduce the staff numbers, so there wasn't really any reason to do so.  

[The Stationmaster]

There are various problems which arise when two 'boxes are close together and there were some differences in the Signalling Regulations between the companies relating in particular to distant signals (the GWR went its own way of course) and also the use, or not, of slotting.  The critical factors were the distance between the outermost Home Signals of the two successive  block posts; whether or not the most advanced Starting Signal of the rearmost 'box was also the outermost Home Signal of the other (see earlier posts) - this of course meant that the block section was no more than the thickness of that signal post; the way in which trains were asked forward into sections in advance instead of being asked forward in the normal way; and - of critical importance - the working of distant signal and controls on their working. by both 'boxes.

 

It then all depends on the Company/BR Region you are talking about and what lies in the section between the two 'boxes.  But in many cases there would be additional items in the signal Boc x special Instructions plus, probably, items in the sectional Sppendix to deal with movements in the block section between the two 'boxes especially if they were at a station.

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Edwin_m said:

Is Stockport the only station that still has boxes at each end of the platform?  Here the boxes are at the arrival ends of the platforms, which I guess makes it easier for the signallers to see tail lamps of trains passing the box, although I guess Stockport is fully track circuited by now.  

 

Shrewsbury nearly qualifies too I guess.  Both stations are probably busy enough that combining the boxes wouldn't reduce the staff numbers, so there wasn't really any reason to do so.  

Shrewsbury does qualify, Severn Bridge Jn at the south end, Crewe Jn at the north.

Stirling still has Middle (at south) and North, though for how much longer I’m not sure.

Paul.

[Edwin_m]

27 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Shrewsbury does qualify, Severn Bridge Jn at the south end, Crewe Jn at the north.

Stirling still has Middle (at south) and North, though for how much longer I’m not sure.

Paul.

I was thinking of boxes right at the platform ends - the Shrewsbury ones are a little way out.  

 

Stirling has now been electrified so I assume it was re-signalled too.  

[Michael Hodgson]

15 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Shrewsbury does qualify, Severn Bridge Jn at the south end, Crewe Jn at the north.

 

Both are listed buildings, but they are bound to close operationally before too long if only because of the cost of such complexities in the working, maintaining archaic equipment and now non-standard operating practices.  The reason they have lasted so long is no doubt that greater savings were always possible elsewhere with such money as was available for resignalling - on fairly plain lines you could make more signalmen redundant just by abolishing simple boxes, and with careful spacing multiple aspect signalling can give a significant improvement in line capacity over traditional semaphores, as you are no longer constrained by the greatest distance between two signal boxes .  For each single-manned box you're talking about 3 people on shifts plus a relief to cover sick and holidays.

 

The Stirling boxes are also both listed, grade A.

 

I was lucky enough to see Pelham Street before Lincoln's boxes went - and it must have been even more interesting when the MR route and the level crossing were both still there.

[DavidBird]

Boat of Garten on the Stathspey Railway still has boxes - the HR called them cabins - at both ends of the station. 

 

Although it is a passing place on a single track line, I have been told that "in the old days" it was worked as AB between the two boxes, the Down (north-bound) platform end signal still has the slotting arrangement in place, although it is only worked by the North box.

 

Forres was, I think, the last place to have an official Netwrok Rail bike

[5BarVT]

22 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

Stirling has now been electrified so I assume it was re-signalled too.  

One would have thought so . . .

but no!

Paul.

[Blandford1969]

Bewdley on the SVR has boxes at either end, with the lines through platform 1 and 2 being double track and that through platform 3 being a token less single line section (Before closure in 1963 it was the shortest token operated single line in the country. 

[beast66606]

11 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Wallgate ARP box still in use, controlling the Liverpool & Southport lines, LED signals replaced the old ones a few tears ago. Electric points now.

 

Frame was replaced by a panel when the LED signal appeared, hence electric points.

[5BarVT]

9 hours ago, DavidBird said:

Forres was, I think, the last place to have an official Netwrok Rail bike

Pretty sure it was Nairn, not Forres as the loop at Forres wasn’t at the station.

Nairn bike went early 2000 so it was a Railtrack bike, didn’t make it to NR.

Paul.

[DavidBird]

Just now, 5BarVT said:

Pretty sure it was Nairn, not Forres as the loop at Forres wasn’t at the station.

Nairn bike went early 2000 so it was a Railtrack bike, didn’t make it to NR.

Paul.

Thanks Paul.  I stand corrected.

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Pretty sure it was Nairn, not Forres as the loop at Forres wasn’t at the station.

Nairn bike went early 2000 so it was a Railtrack bike, didn’t make it to NR.

Paul.

Forres 2003

 

[BR60103]

A bit out of the era, but Tamworth in 1870, written up in Red for Danger.  Two boxes controlling the platform loop which had a stub crossover at the exit. Signalman working with a timetable and a stopped watch. One expecting the express, the other expecting a local. The express went into the loop and onto the stub at the crossover and into the river.

 

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Both are listed buildings, but they are bound to close operationally before too long if only because of the cost of such complexities in the working, maintaining archaic equipment and now non-standard operating practices.  The reason they have lasted so long is no doubt that greater savings were always possible elsewhere with such money as was available for resignalling - on fairly plain lines you could make more signalmen redundant just by abolishing simple boxes, and with careful spacing multiple aspect signalling can give a significant improvement in line capacity over traditional semaphores, as you are no longer constrained by the greatest distance between two signal boxes .  For each single-manned box you're talking about 3 people on shifts plus a relief to cover sick and holidays.

 

The Stirling boxes are also both listed, grade A.

 

I was lucky enough to see Pelham Street before Lincoln's boxes went - and it must have been even more interesting when the MR route and the level crossing were both still there.

Resignalling at Shrewsbury has been deferred several times in the past for economic reasons (i.e. no money available to do it).  Unless things have changed since I visited the 'boxes there - back in the 1990s - it is/was the last place I know of where the former (G)WR Double Line Absolute Block Regulation 4A (Line Clear to Clearing Point Only) is/was still in use albeit included in the Signal Box Special Instructions because it had been removed from the Block Regulations book in the 1972 issue.

21 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

One would have thought so . . .

but no!

Paul.

However some of the signalling was altered and rationalised back in the 1990s/early 2000s.  What was there at teh north end in particular when I revisited in teh early 200s was different from what I had e seen and potographed back in 1993 and the last Caley signal has also gone.

[Michael Hodgson]

9 hours ago, BR60103 said:

A bit out of the era, but Tamworth in 1870, written up in Red for Danger.  Two boxes controlling the platform loop which had a stub crossover at the exit. Signalman working with a timetable and a stopped watch. One expecting the express, the other expecting a local. The express went into the loop and onto the stub at the crossover and into the river.

 

The signalman who "made an error" according to the accident report was (reasonably) expecting an overdue goods rather than a local.  They boxes were not interlocked and although the telegraph had been physically installed, was not yet in use. 

 

Pretty much why they needed the 1889 Act, though it took the Armagh disaster to force politicians to do something about mid-Victorian operating practices.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Lichfield City had two boxes, No.1 at the Birmingham end and No.2 at the Wichnor Junction end. That one was interesring as it was an island platform with a through main line outside the platform line on each side. There was a scissors crossover between the platform and maim lines on each side which enabled the Wolverhampton - Burton and Birmingham - Lichfield Trent Valley trains to overtake each other at station and still give connections. The crossovers were removed some time after the Walsall service was withdrawn in the 1960s and No.2 box was abolished in 1973. 

[Derekl]

Does anyone know what the maximum length of rodding permitted was by say 1960?

[TheQ]

Ludgershall in Wiltshire had two cabins, Officially one was called Perham and  the other, the Main cabin Ludgershall. The Perham cabin controlled the goods yard because the main cabin was unsighted by a road bridge.

 

There were of course, shared systems / interlocks between them as the main line and the branch to Tidworth  passed through / by the Perham cabin area.

 

The various passing places at stations on the Kyle line had two boxes and the phones / bells were often in the main station building in the middle. Had there not been so few trains the Signalman would have been very fit cycling up and down...

Edited August 9, 2021 by TheQ