Swindon Class 120 Cross Country Units

[Wagonmaster]

I am slowly making my way through an old DC Kits Class 120 and have come up with a problem which I hope someone may be able to help with.

 

I am building the unit in 'as delivered' condition and currently working on the interior. It seems the units had curtains fitted to every window, but what colour were they? The very useful Railcar.co.uk site doesn't say. There have also been numerous posts on this site, but no conclusion seems to have been reached.

 

In later Blue/Grey years I remember the First Class area having orange curtains, but these weren't the original. Photographs I have looked at of the early years are black & white, so not helpful. What does seem noticeable is that the First Class curtains seem darker than Second Class.

 

So any ideas would be gratefully appreciated.

[SRman]

I remember orange curtains, but only in the blue/grey era, as you said. I never saw the 120s in their green days.

However, the SR's 4 CEP/BEP units had orange curtains from new, and date from the same era as class 120.

[Halvarras]

I've just checked the three colour albums I have on DMUs and..........yes, tricky isn't it?! An overabundance of nearly head-on views and side windows too often obscured by reflections! However page 63 of "Heyday of the DMUs" gives the clearest view I could find, and at first glance the curtains all appear the be a mid-to-light grey, backed up by a few other images. Luckily the DMBC is leading so the First Class section is nearest the camera, and under closer examination I think  those curtains are actually mid-beige - to me they do look a little different to the Second Class section behind. Perhaps this accounts for the variance you have noticed yourself in b&w images. Maybe somebody else knows for sure.......

 

But definitely not orange at the start!

[Wagonmaster]

1 hour ago, Neil Phillips said:

I've just checked the three colour albums I have on DMUs and..........yes, tricky isn't it?! An overabundance of nearly head-on views and side windows too often obscured by reflections! However page 63 of "Heyday of the DMUs" gives the clearest view I could find, and at first glance the curtains all appear the be a mid-to-light grey, backed up by a few other images. Luckily the DMBC is leading so the First Class section is nearest the camera, and under closer examination I think  those curtains are actually mid-beige - to me they do look a little different to the Second Class section behind. Perhaps this accounts for the variance you have noticed yourself in b&w images. Maybe somebody else knows for sure.......

 

But definitely not orange at the start!

Thanks for your reply Neil. Second Class light grey and First Class beige is pretty much what I was thinking. Good to see that you think the same!  I only remember orange in First Class as I said when some were allocated to Derby EP. I'll go with that unless anybody else comes up with definite proof of other shades.

 

Thanks

[Bristol_Rich]

Zooming on these suggest various shades of grey (noting processing limitations)…

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/diesel/br/dmu-1xx/120/hA870BF74#ha870bf74

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/diesel/br/dmu-1xx/120/hF463C84B#hf463c680

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/diesel/br/dmu-1xx/120/hF463C302#hf463c302

[uax6]

Is the beige actually 'old gold'? This was a common colour used in sleeping cars for curtains....

 

Andy G

[Wagonmaster]

20 hours ago, uax6 said:

Is the beige actually 'old gold'? This was a common colour used in sleeping cars for curtains....

 

Andy G

Good point! It could well have been. Difficult to discern the precise shade on 60 year old film photos though. I think a beige/gold shade would be passable.

[Clive Mortimore]

22 hours ago, Bristol_Rich said:

Zooming on these suggest various shades of grey (noting processing limitations)…

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/diesel/br/dmu-1xx/120/hA870BF74#ha870bf74

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/diesel/br/dmu-1xx/120/hF463C84B#hf463c680

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/diesel/br/dmu-1xx/120/hF463C302#hf463c302

Hi Rich

 

The first photo doesn't appear to be of a Cross-country unit but an Ayr-Glasgow Inrt-city unit. Note the white circle coupling code markings, and the window arrangement is that of a IC DMBS not a DMBC. The most distinctive difference between a Swindon Cross Country unit and an Inter City one is the destination display above the windscreens, the IC units do not have these.

 

There are another 2 photos incorrectly labeled as class 120 when they should be class 126 in the RCTS collection.

 

If they had the same colour curtains, I am clueless on that.

[Wagonmaster]

Well spotted Clive! Incidentally, the preserved Class 126 has grey striped curtains in the 2nd Class area, which is what the general thought on the Class 120 has. Maybe Swindon used this material in the Sc79xxx, 120's and 126's? 

 

I don't think I'd be too far off with the grey and beige/gold combination, do you?

[MJI]

The IC and the 120s were built about a  year apart and have many similarities.

 

I woud not base a 120 on the information but would use it to confirm other sources.

[Wagonmaster]

More Class 120 queries. This time it's the car inner ends. Photographs are virtually non-existent and the diagrams I have don't show the detail I'm looking for.

 

One diagram shows four steps up the left hand side of the DMSO. Did the DMBC and TB have these too? As the DMBC doesn't have a toilet, if it had steps, was there a handrail as well?

 

The exhausts seem to have a cover over them, which seems to be a 'Swindon' thing to protect against hot pipes.

 

Any help gratefully appreciated.

[The Johnster]

A possible source of photos showing the inner ends of the coaches would be the Ian Allan spotting books, which featured photos of pretty well all the different types of vehicles including intermediate coaches. 

 

My memory is failing me because it was a long time ago, but I'm pretty certain there were no end steps by the 1970s, which would make sense as they had been removed from all coaching stock by that time as a safety feature following the spread of the 25kv OHLE after the early 60s Euston/Birmingham/Liverpool/Manchester scheme.  The covers on the exhaust pipes were there by the 70s, a steel or aluminium mesh painted blue to match the livery, but IIRC (and tbh there is little guarantee that I am) these were plain pipes originally, and I associate them with green liveries.  It is possible that some sets had plain exhaust pipes and blue livery.  Wasn't aware that this was particularly a 'Swindon thing', as the covers appeared on Derby 116, Pressed Steel 118, and Gloucester 119 Cross Countrys as well.  I probably assumed that all dmus everywhere had them; perhaps it was just the WR.

[Wagonmaster]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A possible source of photos showing the inner ends of the coaches would be the Ian Allan spotting books, which featured photos of pretty well all the different types of vehicles including intermediate coaches. 

 

My memory is failing me because it was a long time ago, but I'm pretty certain there were no end steps by the 1970s, which would make sense as they had been removed from all coaching stock by that time as a safety feature following the spread of the 25kv OHLE after the early 60s Euston/Birmingham/Liverpool/Manchester scheme.  The covers on the exhaust pipes were there by the 70s, a steel or aluminium mesh painted blue to match the livery, but IIRC (and tbh there is little guarantee that I am) these were plain pipes originally, and I associate them with green liveries.  It is possible that some sets had plain exhaust pipes and blue livery.  Wasn't aware that this was particularly a 'Swindon thing', as the covers appeared on Derby 116, Pressed Steel 118, and Gloucester 119 Cross Countrys as well.  I probably assumed that all dmus everywhere had them; perhaps it was just the WR.

 

Thanks for your reply and suggestion, I didn't think of looking in those! 

 

I must point out that my model is in original green 'as built' condition. I did know the end steps were removed and it is this that makes it difficult when looking at later photos unless you can see the bolt holes! 

 

Regarding the exhaust covers, I've only seen mention of them on Swindon built units, i.e. Class 120, 123, 124, 126 and the first 79xxx series units. The 116's and 117's had plain pipes that joined into a box at the top, which was changed fairly early on to two straight pipes, like the Bachmann Class 117. I thought the 119's were the same, but am willing to be corrected if there is some proof of this. 

 

The only other unit I am aware of with exhaust covers is the Park Royal Class 103, which unusually have the pipes at the outer edges of the car end and could be touched by passengers. IIRC they were like that to the end.

 

Understandably, no one took pictures of the car ends of early dmu's. Too busy chasing the last steamers I guess!

 

It's the same with livery details. I understand the car ends were originally painted black and not the main body colour. The black I think was dropped with the first repaint?

[The Johnster]

Where the steps are removed, at least on mk1s, you don't see bolt holes but a square aluminium plate welded over the holes. 

 

Again, treat this with suspicion as it is reliant on my memory, but I think the non-cab ends were green from the application of the second, darker, lined green livery with white cab roof domes, and the later sets, certainly the 1961 '4-character headcode' build, would have carried this from new.  But the default livery at the ends was standard BR filth, and it wasn't always easy to tell.  The cabs and sides were kept in pretty good order though, which is more than can be said for the white cab roof domes.

[MJI]

Scour this site

https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/22154

[Wagonmaster]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Where the steps are removed, at least on mk1s, you don't see bolt holes but a square aluminium plate welded over the holes. 

 

Again, treat this with suspicion as it is reliant on my memory, but I think the non-cab ends were green from the application of the second, darker, lined green livery with white cab roof domes, and the later sets, certainly the 1961 '4-character headcode' build, would have carried this from new.  But the default livery at the ends was standard BR filth, and it wasn't always easy to tell.  The cabs and sides were kept in pretty good order though, which is more than can be said for the white cab roof domes.

Thanks for that. Bolt holes, welded plates, you know what I mean. Tricky to pick up on photos unless a specific close up of the end.

 

Interesting about the end colours. I guess my model is not quite 'as built' then as it is the darker lined green with white roof domes. Maybe I'll just leave the ends green!

[Wagonmaster]

17 minutes ago, MJI said:

Scour this site

https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/22154

Thanks for that link, it is my 'goto' for first generation dmu's. Obviously most of the photos are in the later blue/grey livery and don't show what I'm looking for.

[Wagonmaster]

Just had a check of the Railcar.co.uk website again and it states the later units of the first batch were delivered in the darker loco green with lining, whiskers and white dome. It also states that the underframe, bogies and inner ends were black!

[MJI]

3 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

Thanks for that link, it is my 'goto' for first generation dmu's. Obviously most of the photos are in the later blue/grey livery and don't show what I'm looking for.

 

That one is an under construction end

[Wagonmaster]

2 hours ago, MJI said:

 

That one is an under construction end

Yes, it is, It is the DMSL and I have reproduced this on my model. I was wondering about the DMBC and TBSO. Did these have a similar end arrangements?

 

I'm slowly getting there and just to give an idea, here is a picture of the incomplete DMBC.

 

[MJI]

OK The ends

 

DMSL as is

DMBC no toilets and a handrail on right

TSLB both ends toilet pipes except buffet is water for it

TSLB Toilet end emergency brake pipe

TSLB Buffet end NOT

 

All had steps or bolts for steps

[Wagonmaster]

2 hours ago, MJI said:

OK The ends

 

DMSL as is

DMBC no toilets and a handrail on right

TSLB both ends toilet pipes except buffet is water for it

TSLB Toilet end emergency brake pipe

TSLB Buffet end NOT

 

All had steps or bolts for steps

Thanks Martin, that was exactly what I was wondering. I thought there was a handrail on the end of the DMBS as there no waterpipes to use as on the other cars. I'll fit that tonight along with the suspended gangway support brackets.

 

Just a little point though, what do you mean by the emergency brake pipe?  I'm aware of the train pipe and brake pipes on the buffer beam. Probably being a bit thick here, but what does NOT mean for the TSLB?

 

Thanks very much again for your help here. I'll probably get it finished just as Heljan announce a 4mm version!

[Phil Bullock]

What are you using for motor? Bacchy 108 motor bogie going in our blue/grey one….

[Wagonmaster]

18 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

What are you using for motor? Bacchy 108 motor bogie going in our blue/grey one….

I'm using a new Hornby Class 121 motor bogie.  They were a bargain £11 each, so I bought several! The unit is also dcc controlled with directional lights and interior lighting.

 

Bacchy 108 should be good too. Any pictures of yours?

[Phil Bullock]

2 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

I'm using a new Hornby Class 121 motor bogie.  They were a bargain £11 each, so I bought several! The unit is also dcc controlled with directional lights and interior lighting.

 

Bacchy 108 should be good too. Any pictures of yours?

In the paint shop with my son James at the moment…. Will put something up once it starts to look decent….