Guards/brake vans in loco hauled passenger service

[11B]

Hi,

 

Random question time!

 

Do loco hauled services conveying passenger's not have to have some form of guards/brake compartment within the formation?

 

I only ask as yesterday I saw the ROG's charter service from Chesterfield to Workington, all mk3 stock, but nothing that resembled a brake van within the formation. The outbound service had 2x37's on the front and a 57 on the back. The return service had all three locos on the front. But this is the first time I have ever noticed a loco hauled passenger service without a brake van!

 

I can't seem to find any useful answers on line.

 

Many thanks

 

Ian

[Wickham Green too]

Not necessarily a van in the traditional sense - with space for parcels - but there's got to be a guard and there's got to be somewhere for him .... maybe they've created an 'office' in an otherwise conventional passenger vehicle.

[cessna152towser]

5 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Not necessarily a van in the traditional sense - with space for parcels - but there's got to be a guard and there's got to be somewhere for him .... maybe they've created an 'office' in an otherwise conventional passenger vehicle.

Could be something similar to Scotrail Mk3 TFGB as found in the Inter7city sets perhaps?  Externally looks like a buffet vehicle but also incorporates an "office" for the guard.

[The Johnster]

I'm not sure there is a requirement for a guard in the tradional sense deze daze.  There is a 'Train Manager' who needs accommodation, but a brake van, which by definition contains a guard's compartment inside of which is a handbrake, automatic vacuum or air brake setter and gauge, ladder, wrecking tools, spare coupling (painted red), and first aid kit, is another thing. 

 

There have been a lot of changes since I last worked on the railway 46 years ago; calling Stationmaster to the thread, paging Stationmaster...

[jim.snowdon]

7 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Not necessarily a van in the traditional sense - with space for parcels - but there's got to be a guard and there's got to be somewhere for him .... maybe they've created an 'office' in an otherwise conventional passenger vehicle.

There's no absolute requirement for a guard in the traditional sense any more, although I have a suspicion that this may only apply in fully track circuited areas with continuous signalling, which is a very considerable amount of the railway these days. There is often a 'conductor' for reasons of passenger interface, revenue checking and door closure, but not as a critical requirement. Sometimes they are provided with 'offices' in one of the carriages in the train; other times they are simply roving (ie homeless).

 

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

here is often a 'conductor' for reasons of passenger interface, revenue checking and door closure, but not as a critical requirement. Sometimes they are provided with 'offices' in one of the carriages in the train; other times they are simply roving (ie homeless).

Probably looking for his bus.

[298]

ISTR there is a requirement for a vehicle to have a handbrake, which would have been provided on the 47. It would have been manned as it was in the formation to provide ETH and as such would have had to have a competent person on board.

 

Another rule that might have been relaxed was the one where only one dead locomotive is permitted to be on the rear of a train, although there were exemptions to this such as if they were class 73s.

[31A]

Pretty sure there will be a requirement for a Rules & Regs competent Guard (as defined by the Network Rail Rule Book) on a loco hauled passenger train, this could be in addition to a "Train Manager" on a train such as the one described, or it could be the same person, as per most "National Rail" passenger TOCs.  Whenever I've travelled on or seen the West Coast Railway Co. Scarborough Spa Express there's always been a Guard who looks after ensuring doors are closed and giving Right Away, i.e. the safety aspects, as well as a Train Manager who is the guy who looks after the passengers.

 

[Edwin_m]

It's certainly normal for a loco-hauled train to have a handbrake on one coach, for use when the locomotive is uncoupled as the air or vacuum brakes can't be relied on to hold it indefinitely.  Possibly if one of the locos remained coupled to the train when the others ran round, as might be the case from the OP's description, that would satisfy the requirement.  

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, 31A said:

Pretty sure there will be a requirement for a Rules & Regs competent Guard (as defined by the Network Rail Rule Book) on a loco hauled passenger train, this could be in addition to a "Train Manager" on a train such as the one described, or it could be the same person, as per most "National Rail" passenger TOCs.  Whenever I've travelled on or seen the West Coast Railway Co. Scarborough Spa Express there's always been a Guard who looks after ensuring doors are closed and giving Right Away, i.e. the safety aspects, as well as a Train Manager who is the guy who looks after the passengers.

 

In simple terms a passenger train is required to have a person trained in Guard's Rules if the train is not cleared for Driver Only Operation and when it is running over line which has not been approved for Driver Only Operation.  The title of that person can be more or less whatever you like  - the critical thing is their level of Rules qualification. 

[anroar53]

As it looked back in 1975s General Appendix Instructions, no doubt changed somewhat since then ????

 

[adb968008]

In my area, I mostly have class 444, 450, 455, 465, 466, 375, 377, 387, 700, 707 etc…

 

none of them have a guards van, indeed most dont have a guard either..

 

DOO.

 

looking at Europe its quite common to have lhcs with no guards vehicle.

Edited August 30, 2021 by adb968008

[Nick C]

16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

looking at Europe its quite common to have lhcs with no guards vehicle.

Not just common, but standard. I've not seen any UIC vehicles with dedicated guard's accommodation -  I believe every vehicle has a handbrake (tucked away in a cabinet in the end vestibule), and the guard just roams, and dispatches the train from any convenient doorway. 

[NorthEndCab]

Spoiled for choice on an HST.

 

Guards compartment at the back of standard (flags, clips and dets can be found here)

 

The “luggage van,” section of the power cars complete with brake gauges and handle, crowbar, rope, axe, saw, hammer, ladder and emergency coupler or the “bunk” in the buffet and who knows what nefarious deeds occurred in there…
 

And after all that they still just used to take up a table in 1st Class to the chagrin of the more “customer service,” facing managers…