Messed up a model... need to find wheelsets that would fit! Help!

[alexl102]

Hello!

Need some advice.

I've messed up whilst assembling a Parkside PMV that I had modified to represent an industrial workers coach. For some reason I attached the solebars to the outer edge of the base, not tucked in a little as they should be, and as a result they're too far apart for ordinary wheelsets to fit, as you'll be able to see in the photo below.

I need  to find, or create, some wheelsets which have an axle that's 28mm long. Does anyone know if you can buy such a thing or how I'd go about making them (the latter scares me a bit, I won't lie; I'm poor with accuracy!

 

Thanks!

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by alexl102

[Il Grifone]

Assuming you can't detach the solebars*, I can see several solutions. Pad out the bearing cups, fit internal bearings (make or they turn up on eBay from time to time), or cut through the axles and fit the stubs into some 2mm inside bore** tubing and reset the wheel back to back. Making new axles is really a job for a lathe. It can be done with a file in an electric drill (clamp the drill), but it is tricky getting the length right.

 

* Parkside used to supply individual mouldings for a reasonable sum, but I don't know if this service is still available now they are owned by Peco.

 

** Assuming the axles are the standard 2mm diameter

[Phil Bullock]

Pad the bearing cups has to be easiest …. Shims of plasticard 

[brossard]

7 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

 

* Parkside used to supply individual mouldings for a reasonable sum, but I don't know if this service is still available now they are owned by Peco.

 

 

A mate of mine got Peco to send some Parkside parts for a Peco kit, so I think they do that.

 

My view is that the messed up part should be corrected so try to disassemble the solebars first.

 

John

[33C]

Use old Triang wagon axles, the ones for the open axle boxes, and then file to a point.

[alexl102]

1 hour ago, Il Grifone said:

Assuming you can't detach the solebars*, I can see several solutions. Pad out the bearing cups, fit internal bearings (make or they turn up on eBay from time to time), or cut through the axles and fit the stubs into some 2mm inside bore** tubing and reset the wheel back to back. Making new axles is really a job for a lathe. It can be done with a file in an electric drill (clamp the drill), but it is tricky getting the length right.

 

* Parkside used to supply individual mouldings for a reasonable sum, but I don't know if this service is still available now they are owned by Peco.

 

** Assuming the axles are the standard 2mm diameter

 

Thank you. My first thought was to detatch the solebars but I don't think they'll come away as I used Revell Contacta and the bond seems to be pretty strong.
Sorry to be annoying... can you expand on the idea of internal bearings? What are they?
I'd consider the 2mm bore idea, just don't know how I'd reset the back-to-back?

 

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

Pad the bearing cups has to be easiest …. Shims of plasticard 

Cool, thank you... What do you mean by padding the cuops? Little pieces of plasticard with the bearings inserted stuck inside the solebars? I considered this but wasn't sure how I'd ensure that I could fit everything accurately. Or have I misunderstood?
 

1 hour ago, brossard said:

 

A mate of mine got Peco to send some Parkside parts for a Peco kit, so I think they do that.

 

My view is that the messed up part should be corrected so try to disassemble the solebars first.

 

John

This was my first thought, but I used Revell Contacta which bonds the plastic so I'm 95% sure they can't be separated.
 

1 hour ago, 33C said:

Use old Triang wagon axles, the ones for the open axle boxes, and then file to a point.

 

Ooh, thank you, I'm not aware of these. Anything particular I can search for to find them?

 

 

[melmerby]

To pad out the axle cups drill a hole (in fact 4) in a suitable piece of plasticard, trim around each hole to size (so you effectively have 4 plastic washers) and place each over axle cup.

Then fit this to the axlebox.

I have had to do this on a few old kits where they are too far apart for modern standard axles.

[33C]

28 minutes ago, alexl102 said:

 

Thank you. My first thought was to detatch the solebars but I don't think they'll come away as I used Revell Contacta and the bond seems to be pretty strong.
Sorry to be annoying... can you expand on the idea of internal bearings? What are they?
I'd consider the 2mm bore idea, just don't know how I'd reset the back-to-back?

 

Cool, thank you... What do you mean by padding the cuops? Little pieces of plasticard with the bearings inserted stuck inside the solebars? I considered this but wasn't sure how I'd ensure that I could fit everything accurately. Or have I misunderstood?
 

This was my first thought, but I used Revell Contacta which bonds the plastic so I'm 95% sure they can't be separated.
 

 

Ooh, thank you, I'm not aware of these. Anything particular I can search for to find them?

 

 

Buy an old, knackered, Triang bogie wagon (Weltrols are common) and just punch them through. One of the wheels will be a friction fit, the other loose. You will then have 4 axles to experiment with! As an aside, early, budget Lima wagons had metal wheels with longer axles and are pin point. Cruder than Hornby but run well. 

[brossard]

You could get some 2mm steel rod and cut it to length.  Then mount it in your Dremel or similar and grind on a file to get a point.

 

John

[DCB]

Why not use inside bearings and make the chassis sprung or compensated.  I suspect that's why most wagons get compensation, the builder builds the chassis wrong.   Mine is going on Hornby dublo chassis, a couple of LWB van ones hacked to death with a disc cutter.

Edited October 1, 2021 by DCB

[alexl102]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

Why not use inside bearings and make the chassis sprung or compensated.  I suspect that's why most wagons get compensation, the builder builds the chassis wrong.   Mine is going on Hornby dublo chassis, a couple of LWB van ones hacked to death with a disc cutter.

Hmmm, sounds like an interesting alternative. How would I do that? 

[Il Grifone]

The inside bearings are basically a strip of brass folded in a U shape with two holes for the axles. Both can be fixed to the floor, but if one is designed to rock slightly from side to side (but not fore and aft!) the vehicle can be compensated giving an advantage in trackholding, especially with a long wheelbase.

The Dublo LWB wagons mentioned above were compensated in that the axles could move up and down in the axleboxes. However this is not the way to do it as, if one rail is lower than the other the weight of the wagon resting on the ends of the axles prevents the wheel dipping to follow it.

The 'flash' way is described here (just ignore the P4 - the method is good for any gauge).

https://www.scalefour.org/moving-to-p4/wagons

 

A commercial item available in the days of yore was the Nucro springing unit - some appear still to be available (usual disclaimer):

 

https://www.jwmodelrailways.com/product-page/nucro-r-407-9ft-wheelbase-wagon-springing-unit-disc-wheels

 

Just cut them in the middle to make two units and attach to the wagon floor.

Ignore the Dublo 3 rail claim. They made a version with wheels to Dublo standards, but these are BRMSB and will derail on Dublo pointwork. The axles are S.W.G (approx. 1.9mm) and modern wheels will be a sloppy fit (or just ream the axle holes a fraction and fit new wheels and axle).

 

Tri-ang axles might not be 2mm diameter*. I'll check if I can find where my caliper gauge has wandered off to....

* Probably not they date from imperial days and are likely to be an S.W.G. dimension.

 

Steel or brass (easier to work) rod is easy to obtain.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Il Grifone

[DCB]

@Il Grifone explained it most eloquently .   Dart castings do OO compensation units 4 for £5.

[brossard]

Dart Castings do MJT wagon compensation units with inside bearings:

 

https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt.php#SuspensionSystems-CarriageCompensationUnits

 

Since these are designed for wagons with 12mm wheels there may be some bodging needed for 14mm wheels, maybe a shim.

 

John

[brossard]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

@Il Grifone explained it most eloquently .   Dart castings do OO compensation units 4 for £5.

 

Cross post.  I was still composing mine when you posted.

 

John

[kevinlms]

17 hours ago, 33C said:

! As an aside, early, budget Lima wagons had metal wheels with longer axles and are pin point. Cruder than Hornby but run well. 

Sorry, but Lima had SHORTER axles not longer. Only 24.5mm if I remember correctly.

[Dunsignalling]

12 hours ago, brossard said:

Dart Castings do MJT wagon compensation units with inside bearings:

 

https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt.php#SuspensionSystems-CarriageCompensationUnits

 

Since these are designed for wagons with 12mm wheels there may be some bodging needed for 14mm wheels, maybe a shim.

 

John

1mm of packing should do nicely, but make sure you don't arrange both axles to rock.

 

John 

[33C]

11 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Sorry, but Lima had SHORTER axles not longer. Only 24.5mm if I remember correctly.

Agreed, but my early wheelsets are 27.5mm. I use them on my Hornby Texaco tanks as they suffer from axlebox spread! 

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, 33C said:

Agreed, but my early wheelsets are 27.5mm. I use them on my Hornby Texaco tanks as they suffer from axlebox spread! 

Interesting, I've never heard of such things. Were they the old HO models or something that I've never touched?

[33C]

41 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Interesting, I've never heard of such things. Were they the old HO models or something that I've never touched?

They were small wagons, French prototypes as I recall, Lima and came with an SNCF bo shunter in green, which was very fast! Always looking for these as they are great for the above reason. 

[alexl102]

15 hours ago, brossard said:

Dart Castings do MJT wagon compensation units with inside bearings:

 

https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt.php#SuspensionSystems-CarriageCompensationUnits

 

Since these are designed for wagons with 12mm wheels there may be some bodging needed for 14mm wheels, maybe a shim.

 

John

This looks perfect. I'd be happy to switch to 12mm wheels if it means the van will run. It's an ex-SR PMV anyway.

Presumably the compensation units are brass... how do I securely attach brass to plastic?

[brossard]

50 minutes ago, alexl102 said:

This looks perfect. I'd be happy to switch to 12mm wheels if it means the van will run. It's an ex-SR PMV anyway.

Presumably the compensation units are brass... how do I securely attach brass to plastic?

 

No, no, no, don't switch wheels   You can adapt the CU's for 14mm by simply shimming by 1mm as Dunsignalling suggests.

 

I would use a general purpose or household glue which you can find at hardware stores.

 

John

[Nick Holliday]

13 hours ago, brossard said:

 

No, no, no, don't switch wheels   You can adapt the CU's for 14mm by simply shimming by 1mm as Dunsignalling suggests.

 

I would use a general purpose or household glue which you can find at hardware stores.

 

John

I suspect I'm missing a point, but if the MJT CU is designed for 12mm diameter wheels, putting 14mm wheels in will raise the top of the CU by 1mm.  Shimming it up 1mm will make it even higher, or have I got that wrong?

Often these CU's need packing to achieve the correct height, as the floors in RTR and kits are of varying thickness, so they probably need checking against the actual model first, before deciding on what packing, if any, is required.

[Il Grifone]

Fiddly, but you can file the axle holes oval to raise the axle 1mm.

 

I finally found my gauge and some Tri-ang axles at the same time. They appear to be 2.05 mm diameter (Presumably 14 SWG) - 2.032mm). A Hornby wheel did seem to go on, but I didn't want to force it. Sticking the axles in the freezer for a while would help.

 

I'd fix the compensation units with screws. Brass seems reluctant to stick in my experience and some of the stronger adhesives can warp the plastic in the long term.

[Campaman]

If you used the thin Revell Contacta glue, you should find that if you re-apply some it will soften the join enough for it to be dismantled.

 

I build a lot of plastic kits and do this all the time, sometimes by accident :-)