Question re direction feathers at junction.

[St. Simon]

36 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I understand that combinations of position 1 and 6 or 4 and 5 are deprecated because diagonally opposed feathers are open to misinterpretation, although quite a number of instances can be found.

There's an example at Nuneaton with 5 feathers and I understand that's the most there is.

 

Also four feather with positions 2 & 5, which I think can be found approaching Gloucester on the line from Chepstow .

Hi,

 

Signals with Diagonally opposite feathers as you say are non-preferred, but are not banned.

 

It’s usual that a SI is used before you reach 5 or 6 JIs on a Signal.

 

Simon

[BR traction instructor]

59 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

 

 

 

Consistent advice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh dear.  Back where I started.

 

 

Though perhaps St. Simon's last paragraph gives room to manoeuvre depending on whether my model is of a current system or one that was based on type of line.

 

Applying Rule one is unclear as I have stock from a range of eras.

It was a little easier in semaphore days Colin…the tallest bracket/arm applied to the faster route with other divergent (slower) route arms stepped down to the left or right as necessary. A junction with two route options of equal speed had two arms of equal height.

 

BeRTIe

 

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[Dagworth]

1 hour ago, Rugd1022 said:

To some train crew route indicators / feathers are also known as 'flashes', although it's not that commonly used.

"Lunars" on the Southern region

 

Andi

[Titan]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

 he may also have shown a failure to understand approach control. With such a dramatic difference between linespeed and the diverging route, the proceed aspect is not displayed until a preset time has elapsed since the berth track circuit was first occupied. That timer circuit, which is regularly checked by the techs, is designed to ensure the loco or train has reduced speed sufficiently, and is therefore customised to the location.

 

He didn't, which is clear in the accident report.  People speculating on accidents causes arguments resulting in threads on what could otherwise be informative discussions on an accident to be locked.

[101]

3 hours ago, St. Simon said:

 

 

 

Hi,

 

Nope, Feathers are allocated on Geometry not whether the line is Main or Branch*, it’s just in most cases the Main is the straight on route.

 

The Junction Indicator (the actual term for a Feather) is precisely that, it indicates the route the train is taking at the junction so that the driver can manage their speed accordingly, so therefore it is better for the JI to be related to the geometry at the points rather than the importance of the line, so it is easier for the drivers to remember it. 

My book explains it all

 

*It might have been the historically that the type of line determined the JI, but not now and hasn’t been for many many years.

 

Simon

 

I'm afraid the way modern planners design things make little sense to me. Diverging routes to the left were always left hand feathers (JI 1,2,3) and to the right the same (4,5,6)

 

Take this example of a route I used to sign, Penarth curve south jct

 

 

Two diverging routes to the left so they were J1 and J2 with a plain aspect to stay on the main route - perfect sense.

 

Then on resignalling it became this:

 

 

So now the second diverging route to left became a RH feather (JI 4) and the main route became junction indicator 5 (no route on a plain aspect).

Admittedly the route curves sharply to the right after the first junction, and to a someone in an office looking at it on paper it probably makes sense, but to an old driver like me it is completely counter intuitive.

 

Obviously it's all down to the driver and his route knowledge, but the planning makes little sense to me and probably makes initial route learning even more complicated than it needed to be.

Edited January 9, 2022 by 101

[big jim]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I understand that combinations of position 1 and 6 or 4 and 5 are deprecated because diagonally opposed feathers are open to misinterpretation

basford hall jn on the down fast heading to the fast independent is a No3 indicator but at night it looks strangely like a no 4 position (which there isn’t a route for anyway!) 

 

some new signal installations have the route indicator to the left of the main aspect, racking my brains to think where but I’ve got Oxford in my head? 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

 

 

 

Consistent advice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh dear.  Back where I started.

 

 

Though perhaps St. Simon's last paragraph gives room to manoeuvre depending on whether my model is of a current system or one that was based on type of line.

 

Applying Rule one is unclear as I have stock from a range of eras.

Yes and no Colin.  It all depends on the date at which the signalling was installed in the back story of your layout. (which might well be of an Irish setting too so there could be further differences?).  the Instructions relating to junction indicators were changed and amplified in the early 1980s and I think might have been altered again in one of the revisions of the Signalling principles in the 1990s.  Despite the Rule Book referring to 'the straight route' since 1950 (and similarly in the 1930s RCH standard Rules) the explanatory diagram exactly replicated semaphore where the highest elevated arm was the principal route and this continued in the 1972 Rule book where the highest elevated arm on a splitting semaphore was described as 'the straight route' (which was of course technically incorrect because the highest elevated arm always applied - and still does  - to the principal route.

 

The connection between the junction indicator sketch in the Rule Book and a semaphore splitting signal sketch was finally broken in the 1983 reissue of Section C of the Rule Book but plenty of signals informed before then were around for along time after as a consequence of the long life of the massive amount of resignalling which took place in the 1960.  Hence no doubt the answers you have received above.  I think it is also fair to say that in the past 50 years the principles regarding the signalling of running line divergences have changed (several times over) more than just about everything associated with colour light signalling on running lines.  The other confusion perhaps also arises from identifying which route is the principal one and a tendency to always consider it as the straight route but this can easily be confused at junctions where both routes are curved to a greater or lesser extent.

 

So in the end the answer lies not so much in the age represented by your stock but the date at which the signalling was commissioned  

[Mike_Walker]

I bet someone is now wishing they'd never asked!   

[Edwin_m]

IIRC the derailment at Foxhall Junction in the late 1960s led to a change in the practice for route indication.  The train was approaching the end of the relief line from Paddington and signalled over the crossovers to continue towards Swindon, with no indicator as this was the principal route.  But there was also a "straight ahead" route into the power station and it was thought the driver was misled by this to believe there was no need to reduce speed.  This was the one where railway author OS Nock was a passenger.  

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Didcot1967.pdf

Edited January 9, 2022 by Edwin_m

[Colin_McLeod]

1 hour ago, Mike_Walker said:

I bet someone is now wishing they'd never asked!   

 

LOL not at all Mike  as this thread has helped me decide.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

So in the end the answer lies not so much in the age represented by your stock but the date at which the signalling was commissioned  

 

I have now decided that my signalling was commissioned "long ago" so the principle route will be green aspect and the JI will be in position one in my case.

 

I may, of course, change my mind, hopefully not after I have purchased my signal.

 

[w124bob]

2 hours ago, 101 said:

 

I'm afraid the way modern planners design things make little sense to me. Diverging routes to the left were always left hand feathers (JI 1,2,3) and to the right the same (4,5,6)

 

Take this example of a route I used to sign, Penarth curve south jct

 

 

Two diverging routes to the left so they were J1 and J2 with a plain aspect to stay on the main route - perfect sense.

 

Then on resignalling it became this:

 

 

So now the second diverging route to left became a RH feather (JI 4) and the main route became junction indicator 5 (no route on a plain aspect).

Admittedly the route curves sharply to the right after the first junction, and to a someone in an office looking at it on paper it probably makes sense, but to an old driver like me it is completely counter intuitive.

 

Obviously it's all down to the driver and his route knowledge, but the planning makes little sense to me and probably makes initial route learning even more complicated than it needed to be.

That shows exactly why people who don't drive trains shouldn't be allowed to dictate the type erected, particularly as TOCS spend time and money on signalling sighting courses for Driver Managers who imput their views into such schemes. Sadly many current Driver Managers lack driving experience and can be sidelined to easily.  I had experience of the Didcot/Reading route before and after the resignalling and that was certainly not done to improve sightings for drivers even before the wires went up!

Edited January 9, 2022 by w124bob

[The Stationmaster]

23 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

IIRC the derailment at Foxhall Junction in the late 1960s led to a change in the practice for route indication.  The train was approaching the end of the relief line from Paddington and signalled over the crossovers to continue towards Swindon, with no indicator as this was the principal route.  But there was also a "straight ahead" route into the power station and it was thought the driver was misled by this to believe there was no need to reduce speed.  This was the one where railway author OS Nock was a passenger.  

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Didcot1967.pdf

Yes, that lead to a specific change which introduced JIs where the line seemingly going straight ahead was not a route.  The interesting thing about the Foxhall Jcn derailment was that when originally erected signal R 180 - which the Westbury Driver misread, along with, in effect, the signals in rear of it - had a position 1 JI to read to the Down Main Line.  but that was taken away at some time  although i can't remember if that was before or after commissioning.  I duly pointed that out in a letter to 'Modern Railways' which they published and which then led to me being called into the office of the Divisional Trains Supt to explain if what I had said was cireec - which I duly did and he said I would hear no more about it because his own checks with S&T colleagues had confirmed what I had said about the change made to the signal.  The signal was in fact altered to bring it into line with the then standard Signalling Principle which it had not been compliant with when it had a JI for the principal route.

 

I'll say no more about Ted Biggin, the Driver - who I knew a lot more about in later years when I was at Ops and Traincrew Asst AM at Westbury - other than to be not in the least surprised by the Inspecting Officer's conclusions.

[Rivercider]

3 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

 

 

 

Consistent advice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh dear.  Back where I started.

 

 

Though perhaps St. Simon's last paragraph gives room to manoeuvre depending on whether my model is of a current system or one that was based on type of line.

 

Applying Rule one is unclear as I have stock from a range of eras.

Penwithers Junction west of Truro is a prototype example, albeit with the Falmouth Branch now single track.

The Falmouth route was the original main line and is straight ahead at Penwithers Junction. Subsequently the Penzance route diverging to the right became the main line. The signal protecting the junction at Penwithers shows a lefthand set of feathers for the Falmouth branch.

I see from searching Flickr a photo from 2016 which shows that the signal head has been renewed some time since the 1980s when I visited.

 

Photo by Simon Lockley 27/4/2016 from Flickr

 

cheers

[DY444]

4 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

The closest I can find is this now long gone example at Nuneaton where you came off the line from Arley Tunnel, only five feathers but it's making me wonder if there is (or was) one somewhere with six on it....

 

 

To some train crew route indicators / feathers are also known as 'flashes', although it's not that commonly used.

 

There are at least 2 signals with 5 feathers still extant.  E56 on the Down Main approaching Exeter St Davids and W55 on the Down Windsor just outside Waterloo (and for good measure the signal next to it on the same gantry, W59, has 4). 

[Colin_McLeod]

1 hour ago, Rivercider said:

Penwithers Junction west of Truro is a prototype example, albeit with the Falmouth Branch now single track.

The Falmouth route was the original main line and is straight ahead at Penwithers Junction. Subsequently the Penzance route diverging to the right became the main line. The signal protecting the junction at Penwithers shows a lefthand set of feathers for the Falmouth branch.

I see from searching Flickr a photo from 2016 which shows that the signal head has been renewed some time since the 1980s when I visited.

 

Photo by Simon Lockley 27/4/2016 from Flickr

 

cheers

 

That's perfect and justifies my arrangement. Thank you for sharing.

[101]

2 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

There are at least 2 signals with 5 feathers still extant.  E56 on the Down Main approaching Exeter St Davids and W55 on the Down Windsor just outside Waterloo (and for good measure the signal next to it on the same gantry, W59, has 4). 

 

There was also a signal with 5 feathers (6 routes) - plus position lights and theatre boxes to give 12 different indications - on the Down main approaching Stoke Gifford/ Bristol Parkway, installed  for the Royal Mail terminal, it had a short life and is gone now.

[Ken.W]

On 09/01/2022 at 10:33, russ p said:

 

Colton junction is still the same 125mph both directions and you get a feather for both routes and you can't find get a decent view of them until you are on top of them. I've Ben wrong routed there a couple of times in the past. Didn't matter then as you could go via Doncaster.  It actually did me a favour as Tees -Tinsley and return was mileage via Doncaster! 

 

I was going to mention Colton Jn as probably the most extreme example of this, only 2 routes with a No1 or No4 feather approached on greens, and 125 line speed*.

When installed extra bright feathers were fitted so you could see the route set from a good distance...

Until someone Went and stuck OLE masts in front of them!

It would matter to us if wrong routed as we'd have ended up stopped on a route we didn't sign, it's only our Leeds and Doncaster crews that sign the diversionary routes to Doncaster from there.

And of course  with a 91, only one way had wires - as l told someone once, just remember those two buttons on the desk, Pan-Up, and Pan-Ic (Down)

 

* not actually attainable from York, though probably is now with a Satsuma.

 

Another similar junction in the same area's Micklefield, the line from Leeds splitting for York via Church Fenton or Hull via Selby, 70 either way, but approach line speed 90

 

On 09/01/2022 at 09:55, BR traction instructor said:

 due to similar line speed in either direction but the implication for a driver was that taking an incorrect route at a junction was classed as passing a signal at danger.

 

Not in this sort of situation

 

On 09/01/2022 at 11:37, Michael Hodgson said:

I understand that combinations of position 1 and 6 or 4 and 5 are deprecated because diagonally opposed feathers are open to misinterpretation, although quite a number of instances can be found.

There's an example at Nuneaton with 5 feathers and I understand that's the most there is.

 

Also four feather with positions 2 & 5, which I think can be found approaching Gloucester on the line from Chepstow .

 

Not usually a problem, as feathers are normally mounted directly above the signal, as in the photo in Rugd1022's reply, so it's clear to which side of the main aspect the feathers illuminated.

 

There are of course exceptions due to sighting or space restrictions, but these are comparatively rare, and again this was part of route knowledge and you'd take special care at such signals.

One such example as l recall, was King Edward Bridge Jn prior to the 1990 resignalling for electrification, where as they were mounted on the wall of a cutting the feather was to the right of the signal. There were, as l recall, no directly opposite feathers on this one though.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Ken.W

[Edwin_m]

3 minutes ago, Ken.W said:

Not usually a problem, as feathers are normally mounted directly above the signal, as in the photo in Rugd1022's reply, so it's clear to which side of the main aspect the feathers illuminated.

 

There are of course exceptions due to sighting or space restrictions, but these are comparatively rare, and again this was part of route knowledge and you'd take special care at such signals.

One such example as l recall, was King Edward Bridge Jn prior to the 1990 resignalling for electrification, where as they were mounted on the wall of a cutting the feather was to the right of the signal. There were, as l recall, no directly opposite feathers on this one though.

I've an idea there was a concern about both positions sloping bottom left to top right (or vice versa) and not obvious from a distance whether they were to the left of the aspect or to the right.  

 

Hitchin Down Slow was (and may still be) another one where the junction indicators were alongside the signal, as it had to fit under the platform canopy.  

[Michael Hodgson]

45 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

 

Hitchin Down Slow was (and may still be) another one where the junction indicators were alongside the signal, as it had to fit under the platform canopy.  

Routes available are :

           To                                                         from Down Slow   From Down Fast

Down Slow                                                      no feather,             Position 1

Down Fast                                                       position 4               no feather,

Cambridge branch over the junction         position 5               position 4 

Cambridge Branch via new flyover -           position 1              position  2

 

So branch trains will get either the rightmost feather or the leftmost one!  I wonder whether that can be said of any other place? 

 

The flyover route avoids conflicting traffic, but although the original route across the junction blocks both Up roads and the Down Fast the route is shorter and faster so non-stopping trains are still routed that way for preference when there is nothing about Up  direction.

 

Flashing yellows are provided on the signals in rear, which on the Down Fast line also has a feather for high speed crossover to Down Slow - needed because the platforms are only on the slow roads.  That signal in turn has flashing yellow at the signal in rear for this crossover. 

 

There is also a signal to the Down Branch from the Up Platform, though I don't think I've ever seen it cleared.  I had hoped to see it cleared when a train left for Cambridge from that platform whilst the Down Slow was being for all Down trains and the Down Fast for all Up trains during engineering works between Hitchin and Stevenage, but unfortunately that meant the train had to be routed through the Yard and the position light used instead! 

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

I've an idea there was a concern about both positions sloping bottom left to top right (or vice versa) and not obvious from a distance whether they were to the left of the aspect or to the right.  

 

Hitchin Down Slow was (and may still be) another one where the junction indicators were alongside the signal, as it had to fit under the platform canopy.  

I'm fairly sure that the concern originated with a JI which was mounted to one side of the main aspect signal head.  There was definitely a warning note that was circulated (although not to traincrews) naming a specific signal and noting that this situation had to be carefully considered when signal sighting was carried out.

[LNERGE]

No one has mentioned position 7

[Ken.W]

22 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Routes available are :

           To                                                         from Down Slow   From Down Fast

Down Slow                                                      no feather,             Position 1

Down Fast                                                       position 4               no feather,

Cambridge branch over the junction         position 5               position 4 

Cambridge Branch via new flyover -           position 1              position  2

 

The flyover route avoids conflicting traffic, but although the original route across the junction blocks both Up roads and the Down Fast the route is shorter and faster so non-stopping trains are still routed that way for preference when there is nothing about Up  direction.

 

Flashing yellows are provided on the signals in rear, which on the Down Fast line also has a feather for high speed crossover to Down Slow - needed because the platforms are only on the slow roads.  That signal in turn has flashing yellow at the signal in rear for this crossover. 

 

 

There's also "Advanced Route Indicators" on approach - basically a 'Theatre Box' type indicator on its own which displays an arrow corresponding to the feather position, so when on flashing yellows we know in time if being routed for the Down Slow or Flyover

 

Erm, if you don't mind, have just corrected the bit l also highlighted in bold for you.

They never worry about checking mere ECML services for GN/TL ones.

Similarly a few years ago an additional Up Slow No2 platform was put in at Finsbury Park, the idea being to keep the Up Fast clear of stopping trains. They do of course still continue to use the Up Fast platform, often stopping  there ahead of Main Line trains and regardless of the fact they then have to take the Up Slow at Holloway in order to access the TL tunnel.

 

1 hour ago, LNERGE said:

No one has mentioned position 7

 

Used to refer to the main route with no feather

[LNERGE]

Available in the catalogue..

 

 

[Ken.W]

3 minutes ago, LNERGE said:

Available in the catalogue..

 

 

 

Interesting. Have heard of 7 being used to describe the main route without an indicator, but never heard of an indicator being used it that position.

[LNERGE]

I've never heard of one being installed but if it was in the catalogue they must have been prepared to manufacture it.