If the Mumbles Railway had survived, what stock would it have used in the 1960s/1970s?

[firstgreatwestern]

Hello RmWeb 

 

As we all know, the world's oldest passenger railway was closed by a bus company. But what if it had survived? 

 

Let's say South Wales Transport is somehow thwarted in their plan to close the railway e.g. Swansea Corporation steps in and buys the railway, OR the parliamentary bill to close the railway gets rejected. Another possibility would be that SWT in another timeline liked railways, and saw the benefits of keeping the line. In any case, it has survived into 1960, but modernization is still required. 

 

What would have replaced those mighty double-decker tramcars? I'm sure at least one or two would've been kept on for holiday traffic. But, they were 30 years old and if the Mumbles Railway had miraculously survived, there would definitely be an expectation that it should reflect the 1960s. The Light Railway Transport League did produce a leaflet before the S&M's closure, suggesting that single-decker continental trams were an option for survival. I think European trams could have been a suitable replacement, as loading times would be faster etc. The Tatra T3 could have been perfect for the Mumbles Railway, as it even operated in coupled pairs! On the "official" Mumbles Railway Facebook page, a post was once made saying that the SWT briefly considered "bringing back" the railway with continental trams in 1989. I don't whether this was true, but it makes for an interesting idea. 

 

OR, are we looking at this through the wrong lens? Perhaps the Swansea and Mumbles would order a fleet of "tramcars" from a British company and something similar to the Blackpool Centenary class would appear 20 years earlier? Talking about Blackpool, wouldn't it be amazing if one of their Millennium Trams was painted to look like a Mumbles Tramcar, as none sadly survived. I still get upset about the fate of Car 2 in Leeds. If that had survived, it would have been the pride of Crich's collection.

 

I would love to hear your thoughts and ideas. 

 

NOTE: This is not in the "Trams" section as the S&M has always been classified as a railway. 

 

 

 

[BernardTPM]

Sheffield had a fleet 'Roberts' trams less than 10 years old when they closed in 1960. Pick and choose the best remaining of them perhaps?

[Michael Hodgson]

I don't know about the 1960s/70s, but today the chosen rolling stock would be "guided buses".

[bécasse]

57 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I don't know about the 1960s/70s, but today the chosen rolling stock would be "guided buses".

...... or perhaps more probably guided single-wire trolleybuses as used in Caen, for example.

photo: Transbus

[Nearholmer]

The 60s and 70s were a bit of a dead period for trams in the U.K., so I’d go with keeping the fleet running, and buying the most modern of secondhand. Blackpool I don’t think bought any new cars in that period, and from what I recall didn’t get into hefty rebuilds until the 1980s, when I think they did one with standard bus panels (I’m sure a proper tram-gricer can give a better summary than I).

[Johann Marsbar]

14 minutes ago, bécasse said:

...... or perhaps more probably guided single-wire trolleybuses as used in Caen, for example.

photo: Transbus

 

Hopefully not, as the Caen route depicted in the photo was replaced by a conventional tramway in 2019 and the other installation, in Nancy, is now going to be replaced by proper double-articulated trolleybuses without a guide rail!!

 

[Legend]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The 60s and 70s were a bit of a dead period for trams in the U.K., so I’d go with keeping the fleet running, and buying the most modern of secondhand. Blackpool I don’t think bought any new cars in that period, and from what I recall didn’t get into hefty rebuilds until the 1980s, when I think they did one with standard bus panels (I’m sure a proper tram-gricer can give a better summary than I).

 Yes that was Centenary cars . Previous Blackpool tram was O-M-O trams rebuilt from Brush Railcoaches in early 70s . Blackpool did do the double deck Jubilees in the 80s , only 2 of them, but I suppose they would have the large carrying capacity that Mumbles trams did have .  Maybe that would be it . These days it would probably be the Flexity tram like Blackpool currently have 

[Michael Hodgson]

I wouldn't call that a trolleybus ... I would call it a rubber-tyred tram or even an overhead electric monorail.

 

The big advantage our old trolleybuses had over trams (apart from not rattling and clanking) was that they did not have to follow the wires as rigidly.  As my old dad said when they first started in Newcastle, you didn't have to wade out through the horse dung to the middle of the street, they pulled up beside you at the pavement.

 

A trolleybus could (within the limits of its poles) overtake or pass badly parked vehicles or similar obstructions which would stop a tram.

 

That Caen system seems to have to follow its return rail, so surely it's just another form of rail vehicle?

[Bomag]

1 hour ago, firstgreatwestern said:

Hello RmWeb 

I still get upset about the fate of Car 2 in Leeds. If that had survived, it would have been the pride of Crich's collection.

 

I would love to hear your thoughts and ideas. 

 

NOTE: This is not in the "Trams" section as the S&M has always been classified as a railway. 

 

 

Well if TMS had taken it when first offered Car 2 may have survived.

[The Johnster]

Had the S & M survived, one would expect a two-car set of the Brush monsters to have been kept and perhaps used as an Oystermouth-Mumbles shuttle on summer weekends.  As two vehicles are preserved, one can be hauled dead if it is not working, or the working one can remain in service while it's friend is being worked on, a flexible system. 

 

The 'main line' would have needed modern light railway vehicles to be viable in terms of running costs and reliability; a reputation for broken down old trams would have got it nowhere fast!  Nobody was buiding such stock in the UK in 1960, and I would expect it to have come from mainland Europe, possibly even the Eastern Bloc to keep costs low.  Not up to speed with how much work needed doing on the per.way, and there would have been major challenges in the coming decades from road schemes, but by the end of the 60s the groundswell of local support was gaining strength.  Moving the trackbed to the LNW after that closed in '64 would have kept it out of the way, and improved the views over the bay, and in more recent years it might even have been extended in conjunction with the SA1 nonsense and run out as far as the Briton Ferry bridge as a park'n'ride.

 

A problem with 'modern trams from mainland Europe' in the 1960s may well have been the height of the OHLE, which would probably have to have been lowered to accommodate the new vehicles.  This effectively means two separate railways, the 'main line' to Oystermouth and the Mumbles end, and the end of through running to Mumbles from Swansea.  A major source of traffic would have been the university, and of course the 'Mumbles Run'.  If the scheme had been successful, and I see no reason why it wouldn't have been if costs were kept in check, this could even have resulted in a demand from Mumbles residents to restore through running as the traffic problems on the Mumbles Road defeated the widenings in the 80s and 90s, and we might even have been seeing a 21st century re-introduction of double deckers, as public opinion would have been vehemently opposed to withdrawing the original cars on the single line Mumbles section.  How about an extension along the Coast Path to Langland, or even Caswell...

 

But there is in reality little point to Swansea when Cardiff is only 35 miles up the road, so let me postulate another 'what if'; what if the Glamorgan Canal had survived, say from the Sea Lock up to, say, Melingriffith? 

[KeithHC]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Had the S & M survived, one would expect a two-car set of the Brush monsters to have been kept and perhaps used as an Oystermouth-Mumbles shuttle on summer weekends.  As two vehicles are preserved, one can be hauled dead if it is not working, or the working one can remain in service while it's friend is being worked on, a flexible system. 

 

The 'main line' would have needed modern light railway vehicles to be viable in terms of running costs and reliability; a reputation for broken down old trams would have got it nowhere fast!  Nobody was buiding such stock in the UK in 1960, and I would expect it to have come from mainland Europe, possibly even the Eastern Bloc to keep costs low.  Not up to speed with how much work needed doing on the per.way, and there would have been major challenges in the coming decades from road schemes, but by the end of the 60s the groundswell of local support was gaining strength.  Moving the trackbed to the LNW after that closed in '64 would have kept it out of the way, and improved the views over the bay, and in more recent years it might even have been extended in conjunction with the SA1 nonsense and run out as far as the Briton Ferry bridge as a park'n'ride.

 

A problem with 'modern trams from mainland Europe' in the 1960s may well have been the height of the OHLE, which would probably have to have been lowered to accommodate the new vehicles.  This effectively means two separate railways, the 'main line' to Oystermouth and the Mumbles end, and the end of through running to Mumbles from Swansea.  A major source of traffic would have been the university, and of course the 'Mumbles Run'.  If the scheme had been successful, and I see no reason why it wouldn't have been if costs were kept in check, this could even have resulted in a demand from Mumbles residents to restore through running as the traffic problems on the Mumbles Road defeated the widenings in the 80s and 90s, and we might even have been seeing a 21st century re-introduction of double deckers, as public opinion would have been vehemently opposed to withdrawing the original cars on the single line Mumbles section.  How about an extension along the Coast Path to Langland, or even Caswell...

 

But there is in reality little point to Swansea when Cardiff is only 35 miles up the road, so let me postulate another 'what if'; what if the Glamorgan Canal had survived, say from the Sea Lock up to, say, Melingriffith? 

Cardiff the Venice of Wales…………. A nice little walk by the canal in the Hayes.

 

Keith

 

 

[bécasse]

8 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I wouldn't call that a trolleybus ... I would call it a rubber-tyred tram or even an overhead electric monorail.

 

The big advantage our old trolleybuses had over trams (apart from not rattling and clanking) was that they did not have to follow the wires as rigidly.  As my old dad said when they first started in Newcastle, you didn't have to wade out through the horse dung to the middle of the street, they pulled up beside you at the pavement.

 

A trolleybus could (within the limits of its poles) overtake or pass badly parked vehicles or similar obstructions which would stop a tram.

 

That Caen system seems to have to follow its return rail, so surely it's just another form of rail vehicle?

The Caen "trains" had small diesel engines and were steerable (hence the exposure of the first set of wheels) so, by lifting the guide wheel, lowering the pantograph and starting the diesel engine, they could go away from the guide rail and wire, much as many continental trolleybuses were able to. In "guide rail" mode theywere as silent as a bicycle. As has been said they have been replaced in Caen by a conventional tramway but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't have been suitable for a route such as Swansea to Mumbles.

Edited January 17, 2022 by bécasse

[AMJ]

I'd probably think that a fleet of 1970's built Skoda trams (or other builder) would be in use until early 2000's.  I'd expect that the body style might have been similar to the double decker vehicles - as a comparison Vienna had some 1970's vehicles echoing earlier ones.

 

Power cable height would not be an issue as the the height that the pans go to could be part of the overall specification similar to the passenger doors on only one side.