Peterborough North

[92220]

Gilbert

 

Thanks so much for sharing all this. I've observed and been silently inspired for a while.

I was born and brought up near Peterborough and your layout could be nowhere else!

Please keep it coming, and best of luck with progress.

 

Iain

[LNERGE]

There were some odd goings on at this end of Peterborough. No3 needed the block whilst the slot on 4 didn't.

 

The bracket signal in question, despite earlier comments in private, was PN17.

 

 

The box diagram and lever plates are from differing dates but i think it identifies the signal.

[The Stationmaster]

There were some odd goings on at this end of Peterborough. No3 needed the block whilst the slot on 4 didn't.

 

 

I can't see why 4 should have needed a 'Line Clear' release in view of the fact that it was a slot on Spittal Junction's (splitting) Down Main Home Signal - that signal could only come off if Spittal Junction cleared it so why would it need to give a 'Line Clear' release on its own Home Signal which was at the advance end of the block section instead of at the entrance to it? What is probably the misleading element in this is the reference on the lever lead to No.4 as the Down Main Starter when effectively it wasn't because it was in reality no more than a slot on Spittal Junction's Homes. I suspect the reason it was done in this way was possibly to save having to block signal some shunting moves on the Down Main at Peterborough North but that would only be clear with the Signalbox Special Instructions to consult but more importantly it also ensured that certain points were properly backlocked.

[LNERGE]

I can think of a number of locations where the starter, released by line clear, is a slot on the first home of the box in advance.

[coachmann]

The real Peterborough is featured in the final chapter on the IA video 'Decades of Steam - The 1940s'. All the footage was shot in monochrome circa 1948-9. No shortage of M&GN locos and assorted D16s etc. Coaches range from ex LNWR arc roof coaches that had been transferred to the M&GN to the newest Thompsons in teak. A few years too early for your layout but there might be something of interest in the background shots.

[The Stationmaster]

I can think of a number of locations where the starter, released by line clear, is a slot on the first home of the box in advance.

 

How odd. I wonder what the point of that would have been as the 'box in advance would automatically have control of the signal in any case. The only reason I can think of for it would be as a way of enforcing Rule 39 at the 'box in rear but even then there were masses of places with short sections where it wasn't done so why do it at some and not others? As I said no doubt the 'box Instructions would help towards an answer. But then it's only going to be relevant on the layout if it is also going to be operated exactly as per the prototype so possibly not relevant to debate it to that level of detail.

[HerbertHopkins]

Hi Gilbert,

 

Things seem to be coming along at a pace now, don't they? Really pleased to see the progress you are making as, it seems, are many other people. Up to page 12 of this thread now which shows how popular this project is. I'll look forward to seeing it in the flesh at some point, hopefully in the not too distant future.

 

Regards

[LNERGE]

But then it's only going to be relevant on the layout if it is also going to be operated exactly as per the prototype so possibly not relevant to debate it to that level of detail.

 

An example where it may prove difficult to operate prototypically is setting back, for example, some coaches bang road from Crescent Junction into the up main platform when it is clear. The lever plates state that if track circuit 'C' is clear 7 disc needs to be pulled before the electric release can be given for the disc controlling the move at Crescent Junction. PN7 disc can be cleared up main to down main via 8 crossover or to the carriage sidings or to up goods departure.

 

How many of us would want to do all that to simply set back into the up platform?

[LNERGE]

A couple more Peterborough bits.. The signal sighting form is interesting... Check out the remarks..

 

 

[beast66606]

A couple more Peterborough bits.. The signal sighting form is interesting... Check out the remarks..

 

I think thats around the time Sudforth and it's area was colour lit

[great northern]

An example where it may prove difficult to operate prototypically is setting back, for example, some coaches bang road from Crescent Junction into the up main platform when it is clear. The lever plates state that if track circuit 'C' is clear 7 disc needs to be pulled before the electric release can be given for the disc controlling the move at Crescent Junction. PN7 disc can be cleared up main to down main via 8 crossover or to the carriage sidings or to up goods departure.

 

How many of us would want to do all that to simply set back into the up platform?

 

Thanks Richard, any thoughts of operating prototypically are now abandoned, particularly as Ken Gibbons' brow became very furrowed when I mentioned working ground signals. I confess that my knowledge of the dark arts of signalling is nowhere near as good as it should be, and that some of what has been discussed on this page has therefore gone way over my head, but I gather that some peculiar practices went on at my chosen location.

 

I would however like to operate as prototypically as is reasonably possible, so all of the information, and particularly that relating to the signals controlled by Spital Junction has been most gratefully received. One thing puzzles me, which is that Spital Bridge no 13 is referred to as "Down main starter" but I can't find a number 13 on the diagram? In any event I understood that North box controlled the main lines? Finally, and I should know this, what does a "slot" mean? Is it that the same signal can be operated from two different boxes? Or have I got myself totally confused (again).

[LNERGE]

I don't think i have mentioned Spital Bridge box as it is on the Midland. Spital Junction 13 is on both the box diagrams i have.

 

 

A slot is is a mechanical device used to control a signal so it will only clear when the conditions are correct. The most common use is to control a distant arm under a stop arm. Where a stop signal is slotted it means two or more boxes need to pull levers to get the signal to clear.

[great northern]

I don't think i have mentioned Spital Bridge box as it is on the Midland. Spital Junction 13 is on both the box diagrams i have.

 

 

A slot is is a mechanical device used to control a signal so it will only clear when the conditions are correct. The most common use is to control a distant arm under a stop arm. Where a stop signal is slotted it means two or more boxes need to pull levers to get the signal to clear.

 

Sorry, don't know why I put Bridge instead of Junction. Thanks very much for yet more valuable information. I'm learning all the time from this. However, I still can't find 13 on either plan. Could you put me out of my misery by pointing me in the right direction please? Other than that, I think I finally know what was where, and what it did. For example, I now know that I have to signal coal empties specifically, whereas before I thought they were just directed into the yard in general.

[Weekday Cross]

13 is on the far right of the plan, just under "LMS"

[LNERGE]

13 lurks on the down main towards the right of the diagram under LMS.

 

I'll post some more Peterborough bit this evening. I still can't get my head around the fogging arrangements.

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry, don't know why I put Bridge instead of Junction. Thanks very much for yet more valuable information. I'm learning all the time from this. However, I still can't find 13 on either plan. Could you put me out of my misery by pointing me in the right direction please? Other than that, I think I finally know what was where, and what it did. For example, I now know that I have to signal coal empties specifically, whereas before I thought they were just directed into the yard in general.

 

 

 

Do you mean the signal you couldn't work out the reason for in your earlier photos - the single stop arm on a right hand bracket? If it is that one then it is No.17 on the Peterborough North diagram and its purpose will be further explained on the lever leads which accompany that diagram.

[Baby Deltic]

Cracking layout, cracking stock, keep up the good work.

[great northern]

Do you mean the signal you couldn't work out the reason for in your earlier photos - the single stop arm on a right hand bracket? If it is that one then it is No.17 on the Peterborough North diagram and its purpose will be further explained on the lever leads which accompany that diagram.

 

Hi Mike,

No, we sorted that one thanks.-it's the starter for the two arcade bays. The reason I couldn't find 13 on the Spital Junction diagram is that it was situated the other side of Spital Bridge, and therefore "off scene" so far as I am concerned. It's one less signal to model.

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Mike,

No, we sorted that one thanks.-it's the starter for the two arcade bays. The reason I couldn't find 13 on the Spital Junction diagram is that it was situated the other side of Spital Bridge, and therefore "off scene" so far as I am concerned. It's one less signal to model.

 

Duly noted and apologies for butting-in. Now it looks like all we've got to do is get you sorted on enough of the relevant prototypical operation features to have all these very nice signals and trains worked properly - and I think that might be far easier than you suspect (assuming you want to do it that way of course).

[great northern]

Well folks, I'm delighted to say all went as planned today, so all running lines wired, plus all point motors, and all accessory decoders too. Which means......I've got a running layout. Trains have duly circulated on both Up and Down main, after which we went for a curry and a beer or two. So tomorrow I can start test running the whole thing. :D

 

Just a few loco spurs to lay and wire now, then tracklaying is complete. There are good days.... and there are very good days. Well worth the waiting and the occasional frustration. Definitely the end of the beginning.

[LNERGE]

A little off scene for you but for completeness..

 

 

Good luck with the running!

[Satan's Goldfish]

Well folks, I'm delighted to say all went as planned today, so all running lines wired, plus all point motors, and all accessory decoders too. Which means......I've got a running layout. Trains have duly circulated on both Up and Down main, after which we went for a curry and a beer or two. So tomorrow I can start test running the whole thing. :D

 

 

 

Pictures or it didn't happen

 

Nice work, been waiting to read 'trains running' on this for a while, looking forward to more.

 

Well folks, I'm delighted to say all went as planned today, so all running lines wired, plus all point motors, and all accessory decoders too. Which means......I've got a running layout. Trains have duly circulated on both Up and Down main, after which we went for a curry and a beer or two. So tomorrow I can start test running the whole thing. :D

 

 

 

Pictures or it didn't happen

 

Nice work, been waiting to read 'trains running' on this for a while, looking forward to more.

[LNERGE]

Good day on Tuesday, as the signals arrived, and Tom got some more point motors done, though not as many as last time, as they were all very difficult locations so every one required the making of some form of linkage. I got some more Cobalts for this job, and again they proved to be invaluable, mainly because they are smaller than Tortoises, but also because they don't require soldering when it comes to wiring them up. Seriously good product, which I thoroughly recommend.

 

Right, some more photos showing Ken Gibbons' lovely signals.

 

This is another attempt at recreating the prototype photo I posted a while ago. Signals bring it to life, don't they? Just to clarify, the two closest signals will eventually be platform mounted. The underslung one on the left is for the down main, and was custom made so that drivers could see it when running towards it under the overall roof. The other one is for the Up main, which was the only road sigalled for bi directional running.

And another attempt at doing it in black and white like the original. I've actually found out how to crop these now, but unfortunately I can't take out all the bookshelves without beheading one of the signals.

Closer view, which shows the sigalling better. Sunlight is a mixed blessing when taking photos.

This is probably all that remains in the way of official records for the platform mounted gallows bracket signal..

[great northern]

Duly noted and apologies for butting-in. Now it looks like all we've got to do is get you sorted on enough of the relevant prototypical operation features to have all these very nice signals and trains worked properly - and I think that might be far easier than you suspect (assuming you want to do it that way of course).

 

No apology needed , I am very grateful for your input. I would very much like to operate as prototypically as possible, though working ground signals are a step too far. With that reservation, all information/training will be most eagerly and gratefully received.

[great northern]

Today I have been working on more track laying. The first photo may not look very inspiring, but it is in fact..... the last spike.

 

It has now been ceremonially driven home. I did ask a load of celebrities to attend, but they were all too busy. I've no idea how many track pins and fish plates have been used, but it's a lot. No more from now on though. Work started with filling in this corner.

From there we go to another Peco three way point - they really are very useful and space saving-

The two left hand tracks then go into that useful alcove I first mentioned months ago.

Next were the two extra sidings Tom suggested could fit between the entrance to the Up and Down yards. First photo is the entrance to them, which is off the Down through road.

Then the sidings themselves.

Next are the South end kick back sidings, which I had already laid.

These run off the Up through road, so don't tie up a road when I need to use them. Next is the question of what to do with all of these. I've had various ideas, but in the end I decided to use most of them as loco spurs. Those two middle roads though are ideal for a couple of short trains. These are my Kings Cross "Parliamentary" set, and a Leicester- Peterborough East set, which is awaiting one more BSK.

And as fiddle yards aren't very inspiring, here are a few shots of some trains in the station. You'll have to take my word for it that they got there under their own steam. First is a 9F with coal empties waiting on the Down slow for a path across the Up main and into New England yard. It may be there for some time....

We shall make sure that all of the signals are perpendicular when they are finally put in place. Next, to the South end, and Silver Link arriving, having slowed the down Heart of Midlothian to the necessary crawl.

She then passes A3 Diamond Jubilee, which has stopped with an Up York and Hull train.

And finally for now, a close up of the A3.