Commercial Exhibitions

[MarkSG]

What is a commercial organisation? One that takes the money at the door and does not plough it back into the hobby or voluntary group such a heritage rail centres and associated museums etc.

 

 

But "the hobby" isn't just the clubs. The hobby is also the modelling media, the event traders, the individual modellers (whether members of clubs or not), the manufacturers and the retailers. If a show benefits any of them then it's benefiting the hobby, even if they're a commercial organisation with shareholders or owners that will also benefit.

 

I don't object to the fact that a tiny little piece of the admission fee I paid for Model Rail Live will go towards Chris Leigh's salary any more than I object to the fact that the burger van operators made a profit on the chips I bought from them. I expect that both Bauer Media and Hornby made a profit on the limited edition signal box that I bought. I don't object to that, either. I don't object to the fact that when I buy something from my local model shop a proportion of the price goes towards the profits of the shopkeeper and the manufacturer.

 

 

If we're going to boycott commercial operators then we'll be back to the days when there was no RTR or kits, no professionally produced media and no model railway shops. Except, of course, that there never was any such time - there has always been a commercial element to the hobby, even if it was unrealistic tinplate on three rails.

 

It also has to be recognised that clubs, in the traditional sense, aren't necessarily at the heart of the hobby any more. Or, rather, the role of the club is evolving. Websites such as this one fulfil the role of the club for many people. Others like to spend time (either modelling or just socialising) with other modellers in the flesh, but prefer to do so simply as a group of friends rather than as a formally constituted club. There will always be clubs, but being part of a club isn't the be-all and end-all any more.

 

As a punter, I don't particularly care who has organised a show, provided that they do a good job of organising it. Some clubs - such as Wigan, Manchester, Stafford, Warley and Risborough, to name a few that I'm aware of - do an excellent job of organising large-scale shows. Some (which I won't name) give the impression that they'd struggle to organise the proverbial drinking session in a brewery. Most club shows are somewhere in between, and most smaller club shows are perfectly adequate amateur (in the right sense of the word) events - they don't need to be professional, because they don't set out to be; they don't compete with large commercial shows any more than the Village Institute drama club competes with the Royal Shakespeare Company.

 

In any case, a burgeoning commercial scene demonstrates the fundamental strength of the hobby. The time to worry will be when the commercial operators all give up and go elsewhere, because that means we're too unimportant to care about.

[Miss Prism]

I don't know what club is being referred to in the OP, but isn't the nub of this debate more about territory than commerce?

[dibber25]

Fact is, the commercial side and the non-commercial sides of the hobby are so inter-linked that anyone who tries to separate the two - or worse, set one aspect against the other - is on a hiding to nothing. Yes, commerce exists to make some money out of the hobby, and if it didn't make a profit there would be nothing to plough back in to new product. Commercial shows enable traders to put their products before the public and these shows attract traders who would not be likely to come to club shows. Yes, there is inevitably a degree of competition because there are so many shows these days that its virtually impossible not to clash with someone else's event. Model Rail Live was designed to be something different, which wasn't just a club show done by a 'big outfit'. At the end of the Sunday we were able to make donations to Barrow Hill's signalbox restoration and to the Baby Deltic Project, and of course, Barrow Hill itself will also have benefitted from some income. Equally, Model Rail supports club events by giving free space on Exhibition Diary and, by previous arrangement, including exhibition publicity where appropriate on layout articles.Banning a layout because it has appeared at some event that you don't like, sounds like restrictive practice to me.

None of the admission fee for MR live will go to my salary, or anyone else on our team come to that. I get paid the same regardless, and I work some weekends at shows as part of my duties. Club shows are aimed at getting locals in, with any profits going into the club to build layouts or improve facilities. Commercial shows such as MR Live are aimed at a wider audience and at attracting newcomers to the hobby without which, neither we nor the clubs will survive for long.

CHRIS LEIGH.

[CUTLER2579]

Their is also the cost of admission to these "commercial" shows, commonly nearly double the admission charge of a Good Club show such as Nottingham,Railex(Princes Risborough), Spalding or Wigan as just four of many I could name.

Regrds.

[Kris]

If one supermarket company banned a supplier simply for supplying a rival chain, they would soon find the result being that they had no suppliers themselves. I think the same kind of thing would be a likely outcome here.

 

 

 

That does happen very very frequently when it comes to own brand items. Certain supermarkets will not deal with suppliers who make own brand items for other supermarkets. The suppliers accept this as a fact of their business.

 

 

[BigMal]

As a long time exhibitor at many different Shows (20+ per year over the last 30 years) it seems to me that the OP is just trying to stir the rumour mill, with an ultimate intention unknown. Personally I have come across only one purely commercial show, which had no connection whatsoever with the model railway hobby, the intent of the organisers to make money out the good will of the exhibitors. I might add that the particular event was very short lived (2/3 years) and is long since defunct because the exhibitors realised how they were being duped.

 

Mal

[Eaton]

Over the last few weeks I have heard reports from different sources that the organisers of a major North of England Model Railway Show have said that layouts appearing at Commercially run model railway exhibitions would be blacklisted and not considered for inclusion in thier show in future.

 

I e-mailed the “exhibits organiser†from the link on the show’s website almost a month ago but have not yet received a reply which is why I am posting to ask if anyone else had heard similar rumours or could confirm whether it was true or not, because of the lack of reply from the organisers.

 

I have tried searching other websites and the only result is a similar thread on another forum asking the same question by someone else who has had the same lack of response from the organisers.

 

Mark

 

 

NB. I have checked with Andy before posting what I realise could be contentious, and he has given me permission to post this provided I do not name the show on the forum. But if exhibition managers are concerned it may be their show and contact me off forum I will tell them if it is theirs.

 

 

I would suspect this to be another instance of the famous railway modelling grapevine of speculation and mis-information, which you take notice off at your peril. It always seems to be accompanied by a veil of secrecy.

I would suggest that if you look at the feasibility of applying such a blacklist then each year you would take out of the pool of available layouts to invite well over 150. These are unlikly to be replaced by new 'clean' layouts coming on to the exhibition curcuit each year. So an exhibition manager who attempts such a blacking is deminishing his layout list year upon year. Not the recipe for improving the quality of his exhibition.

In short it is not going to happen and that may be the reason why the club has not responded.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I read and re-read this thread and I am a bit flummoxed. Even Warley is organised by a club. On that basis, I have yet to attend a commercial show that is exhibiting model railways. I assume by 'commercial' that you mean a show organised by XYZ Promotions Ltd. London W1AA 3GZ or some such.

 

I don't think I have attended one of those. Are there any in the events calendar on here?

 

I am suspecting that we are running into the one reason that I have never joined a club--------politics.

 

I think many exhibitions have lost the plot about why people go to them. I for one want to see layouts that incorporate items that I can buy at the same show. i do appreciate the artistic nature of these layouts but I find it intimidating that everything is scratchbuilt and unavailable to buy. Nevertheless, some of these layouts are quite spectacular and well worth looking at and discussing as to techniques for scenery.

 

I also find it useful that some of the fringe suppliers will attend local shows to peddle their wares and have purchased some of these.

 

The exception is Warley. Most traders go there because if they don't, the world thinks they have gone bust. It is the only show that I attend apart from the Taunton show, that could even support a commercial organiser.

[grahame]

It would interesting to know exactly what they mean by 'commercial' show. After all aren't all shows organised on a commercial basis (at least to some extent like hiring a hall, booking layouts and traders, setting an admission fee, advertisng, etc) with an aim to make a profit/raise funds and promote and showcase the hobby?

 

G.

[RANGERS]

The thought of "blacklisting" does seem to be taking things to extremes but it is nonetheless the perogative of any organisation running a show to decide who they invite so that's up to them and nothing to do with any of the rest of us.

 

What does concern me is that commercial organisations are reliant on "voluntary" labour to generate profit for a business concern from a particular event.

 

Looking at this in my own trade, there are a number of trade shows which trade exhibitors attend, pay their staff for doing so and likewise many contractors doing everything from stand building to catering. The equivalent to the commercial show model would be the organiser saying to, for instance, the show's retained standbuilding contractor, "'tell you what, you come along and build the infrastructure and we'll feed you, put you up in a hotel and give you some petrol money." What do you suspect the reply might be?

 

I know what the response would be if we asked any of our staff to work for expenses only, without them we have no business and likewise without layouts, the commercial show has no event.

 

At the end of the day it is up to the individual to decide whether he is willing to line somebody elses pocket by working for nothing, I personally wouldn't do it but I'm not going to criticise anyone who does and I consider it wrong for anyone to pass judgement on anyone who does.

[grahame]

I assume by 'commercial' that you mean a show organised by XYZ Promotions Ltd. London W1AA 3GZ or some such.

 

I don't think I have attended one of those. Are there any in the events calendar on here?

 

 

Yes. The International N Gauge Show (TINGS) and the Garden rail/large scale show are organised by Meridienne Exhibitions Ltd; http://www.meridienneexhibitions.co.uk/

 

G.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Yes. The International N Gauge Show (TINGS) and the Garden rail/large scale show are organised by Meridienne Exhibitions Ltd; http://www.meridienn...ibitions.co.uk/

 

G.

 

Interesting that both of these are in minority scales.

[John C]

That does happen very very frequently when it comes to own brand items. Certain supermarkets will not deal with suppliers who make own brand items for other supermarkets. The suppliers accept this as a fact of their business.

 

 

But there are well known suppliers that supply there own and several supermarket own brands from the same factory.

[MarkSG]

I read and re-read this thread and I am a bit flummoxed. Even Warley is organised by a club. On that basis, I have yet to attend a commercial show that is exhibiting model railways. I assume by 'commercial' that you mean a show organised by XYZ Promotions Ltd. London W1AA 3GZ or some such.

 

I don't think I have attended one of those. Are there any in the events calendar on here?

 

Dunno if they're on the events calendar here, but anything organised by these companies would certainly qualify as commercial:

 

http://www.meridienneexhibitions.co.uk/

http://www.warners-exhibitions.co.uk

 

Plus of course this one:

 

http://www.modelraillive.co.uk (look at the company details at the bottom right of the page)

 

So yes, there are plenty of "commercial" events out there. But, equally, they're an established part of the scene, so there's nothing unusual about them.

 

I also think it's rather insulting to suggest that a person or organisation who earns their living from model railways, as opposed to doing it for fun, is somehow not "part of the hobby".

[Kris]

But there are well known suppliers that supply there own and several supermarket own brands from the same factory.

 

 

Absolutely. The incidences that I am aware of involve 2 of the UK's largest supermarket brands. Whilst these are capable of accepting that other supermarkets will have products made at the same factory as their own products they will drop their contract like a stone if the other supermarket gets the factory to make their own brand items. Both supermarkets did / do stock the factories own branded items.

 

 

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I also think it's rather insulting to suggest that a person or organisation who earns their living from model railways, as opposed to doing it for fun, is somehow not "part of the hobby".

 

I completely agree. I go to exhibitions in the sure and certain knowledge that I will pay to go in and spend more money in there. If I feel that I will not gain anything by going then I exercise choice and don't go.

 

I am actually completely uninterested in who is profiting from my expenditure as long as I am enjoying myself.

 

The only exception is RMWeb gatherings but I actually spend more as a result. Nearest thing to a club I will ever join.

[Foulounoux]

That does happen very very frequently when it comes to own brand items. Certain supermarkets will not deal with suppliers who make own brand items for other supermarkets. The suppliers accept this as a fact of their business.

 

 

 

And certain brands will do this in reverse - only the big brands though with enough clout!

And certain brands no supermarket would dare blacklist - certain cereal company springs to mind

 

 

 

 

 

Going back to the OP The blacklisting I think will be self defeating

 

a) Commercial Show will want the biggest/best/most famous layouts to bring i e crowds and revenue

 

B) These layouts are blacklisted so don't appear at the club show

 

c) General Public will look at their options - club show with limited selection of layouts or commercial show with the big stars result club show has limited attendance and then struggles to attract layouts in future - vicious circle

 

 

So whilst one might understand the frustration of competing against the commercial show the act of blacklisting layouts is likely to backfire

I assume he doesn't propose to blacklist traders as well

 

 

 

Colin

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting that both of these are in minority scales.

 

And that neither of them are charging 'twice as much' (as club shows). So presumably in these cases are the company simply organising the show on behalf of what are effectively clients in the form of more traditional elements of the hobby (e.g. clubs and/or traders)? I see they also advertise the London Model Engineering Exhibition - which has been run by all sorts of organisations and magazines over the years, is this company doing on their behalf or have they bought the exhibition name?

 

So it still leaves comes back to my question - what is a 'commercial organisation' in this context? Does it, for example, mean one part of the Warners Group organising exhibitions for BRM or does it mean BRM organising exhibitions? Or is it something different?

[grahame]

Interesting that both of these are in minority scales.

 

These are only the ones by Meridienne - I would imagine that there are other shows by other such 'commercial' companies. And N gauge/scale, although not a majority, is hardly a minority being the second most popular model railway scale in the UK. The N gauge one was very well patronised - certainly by more people than I usualy see at a multi-scale show and apparently the attendance was 17% up on last year.

 

G.

[PeteScR]

I agree with JSW to an extent in that it is not really a battle or situation that should be allowed to escalate.

 

I am always sceptical of the publications that exist when they go outside of their comfort zone (i.e. publishing) to put on an event. It is obvious that they are not doing it for the good of the hobby, but they would like us to think they are. The people at the coal face of the publication may be of a mind that it will help them bond with their readership, but those in the board room who put the money up will want a decent return for the risk. Thats business. Selling mags or running events has only one aim in their minds. Its a means to an end to make profits for shareholders. Full stop.

 

I had a long chat with Steve Flint at Manchester this weekend and we were in agreement that one of the biggest issues could be the lack of quality layouts coming through, particularly in D&E. Unless we get that right, then no matter how many shows or who organises them, the same layouts will circulate and people will get bored. It then becomes a trade event with layouts, whereas I would like to think that as modellers we should be going to see the layouts first and foremost.

 

The "commercial" shows as people call them tend to be soul-less in my opinion, poorly laid out and with far too many second hand or even junk stands. In my opinion this is because it is being organised by people who think they know what modellers want as opposed to what we really need. The rents are too high for the people we, real modellers, need at these events but you can always be assured that there will be no shortage of Thomas items on sale or stalls selling sweets etc.

 

So long as we keep supporting the smaller and specialist shows, they will survive and hopefully thrive. There is room for everyone but we need to make sure that the real modellers exhibitions are supported and by that I mean the likes of Scaleforum, EMGS events, DEMU Showcase, The N Gauge show at Leamington and other such specialist events. We should also not forget all those church hall and club events, which may not get your heart racing but your £3 or so on the door is very much appreciated. This weekend I went to Manchester and to the Mickelover Club open weekend in Derby.

Manchester was big, lots of layouts and trade. Mickelover was quieter, laid back, excellent catering and very friendly bunch of chaps.

Two shows, both satisfied me for very different reasons.

 

Its up to us to decide what is important for the hobby, and vote with our cash.

 

Pete

[Edwin_m]

I am always sceptical of the publications that exist when they go outside of their comfort zone (i.e. publishing) to put on an event. It is obvious that they are not doing it for the good of the hobby, but they would like us to think they are. The people at the coal face of the publication may be of a mind that it will help them bond with their readership, but those in the board room who put the money up will want a decent return for the risk. Thats business. Selling mags or running events has only one aim in their minds. Its a means to an end to make profits for shareholders. Full stop.

 

This happens in the big railway (and I presume many other industries) too. There are a lot of companies and magazines organising expensive conferences, heavily plugged in the trade press especially if associated with the publisher, and you suspect these aren't done to benefit the industry but simply to make profit for the organisers. And as an aside some of them pay expenses but none as far as I'm aware pays fees to speakers - and trade shows don't pay their exhibitors either.

 

I've have stayed away from Warners events, and mostly stayed away from BRM, partly for this very reason. It is also why I expressed some concern on here that Model Rail were following the same path, though judging from the reaction here their Live event was very well received and of course benefitted the preservation movemement via Barrow Hill. I hope therefore that Chris and co have avoided that particular trap.

 

So long as we keep supporting the smaller and specialist shows, they will survive and hopefully thrive. There is room for everyone but we need to make sure that the real modellers exhibitions are supported and by that I mean the likes of ... The N Gauge show at Leamington and other such specialist events.

 

That goes to show how difficult this question becomes, since TINGS was mentioned above as one of the commercial ones.

 

The "commercial" shows as people call them tend to be soul-less in my opinion, poorly laid out and with far too many second hand or even junk stands. In my opinion this is because it is being organised by people who think they know what modellers want as opposed to what we really need. The rents are too high for the people we, real modellers, need at these events but you can always be assured that there will be no shortage of Thomas items on sale or stalls selling sweets etc.

 

Not true in the case of TINGS, hardly a second hand item in sight but a good selection of specialists as well as box-shifters. Since then I've been to Loughborough and Mickleover, a medium and a small exhibition, both good in their own way and with a good balance between new and second-hand.

 

So I think the fact that an exhibition is commercial doesn't necessarily make it worth boycotting or blacklisting, but there are a range of different attitudes behind the commercial shows. As a commercial operator the best way to make money in the long term is to satisfy the customer, and I suggest there is a place in the hobby for well-run commercial exhibitions alongside the more voluntary model.

 

However a commercial operator should tread particularly carefully in avoiding clashes with local voluntary exhibitions, as this not only splits their market but potentially alienates their customer base.

[Mike Bellamy]

 

We should also not forget all those church hall and club events, which may not get your heart racing but your £3 or so on the door is very much appreciated. This weekend I went to Manchester and to the Mickleover Club open weekend in Derby.

Manchester was big, lots of layouts and trade. Mickleover was quieter, laid back, excellent catering and very friendly bunch of chaps.

Two shows, both satisfied me for very different reasons.

 

Its up to us to decide what is important for the hobby, and vote with our cash.

 

Pete

Many thanks for the mention - Mickleover and Manchester being compared together and it's great that you enjoyed both - as you say these shows set out to do different things and are certainly not in competition. You are correct that your £3 was appreciated (along with 699 other visitors) although there were a lot more in the £2 category with many children and of course the more mature visitor

 

I'll pass on your comments to the volunteers in the Tea Rooms - they are there every day during the week and then give up their weekend to support a "friendly bunch of chaps" - you wouldn't get that at a "Commercial" show.

 

Mike

 

Edit - just seen that we get another mention from Edwin in the post above

[Andy C]

I find the OP completely unbeleivable. Ive been an exhibition manager for 24 years, the last 11 of a major Northern show (Manchester). Ive also exhibited my own, club and colleagues layouts at more shows over 30 years than I care to mention, including commercial shows. To exclude layouts that have appeared, and lets be specific here, the Warner shows come to mind, would probably immediately exclude over half the decent layouts in this country. I also couldn't put Dewsbury Midland into our show because we've been to Donny which would be a tad embarrasing!

 

And how exactly do you police it? Hand on heart of the 23 layouts at Manchester this weekend, I havent a clue which have and havent been to a commercial show (apart from Dewsbury!) Do I give a monkeys? not at all, and I just cannot see the point of such a move.

 

Don't take me as a supporter of commercial shows by any means, i'd rather they didnt exist, and all monies raised from shows stay within clubs and not in a shareholders pocket. But because x club isn't going to invite our layouts because I / We've been to a commercial show doesnt particularly bother me as a layout operator / owner - after all I've every intention of charging a commercial show a commercial rate should I get invited!

[craigwelsh]

Warners have been mentioned as a commercial show but all 3 of their shows are done in partnership with model railways clubs anyway. Its probably more beneficial for the clubs this way too as they get some money without the risk factor. Obviously they have difficulty if the commercial partner stops though and don't gain as much as they would doing it themselves and finding the event was in profit!

 

I've not been to these shows though because of their aim and will continue to support the specialist shows which are aimed more at me.

[Pennine MC]

 

I e-mailed the “exhibits organiser†from the link on the show’s website almost a month ago but have not yet received a reply which is why I am posting to ask if anyone else had heard similar rumours or could confirm whether it was true or not, because of the lack of reply from the organisers.

 

 

Why would you expect them to reply to you Mark? Is it actually any of your business? Are you a member of some unelected body that oversees the exhibition circuit in this country?

 

...it seems to me that the OP is just trying to stir the rumour mill, with an ultimate intention unknown.

 

Quite.

 

I do appreciate there's a generalised issue of principle here, which may or may be worthy of debate. My problem with the thread is that already it's full of words like 'will' and won't' and 'is' and isn't', which suggests that folk are talking in terms of this rumour as if it is actually known fact.

 

Not that the OP would expect that result of course, oh no...